How common is cheating?

[Matt Rowe]

The recent topics on legality of this mod and that mod bring up an issue that's been on my mind. As someone new to IT and club racing (I've spent several years in Solo I as both a driver and official) just how common is cheating?

From a new person looking in the impression is that everyone cheats. Car builders say it, race shops say it, spectators say it and especially other drivers will say it. And I have definitely seen cars in the paddock that aren’t legal. All you have to do is walk around the pits and you can hear someone saying that car #XX must be cheating. There are usually reasons like the car suddenly got faster or they know the guy who did the work or any of a hundred reasons. The end result is a new guy is left with the impression that everyone is doing it, and getting away with it so why not join in?

Now, after following this forum for a few months I have definitely picked up on a group of people that give the impression they don't cheat and are very critical when they see it happening around the,. And thankfully that group seems to be the vocal majority on this forum. There are some people who seem to stretch the rules to a point of being all but indistinguishable from cheating but that's a definite grey area and they are still trying to work within the rules even if the justification seems illogical at best.

But with all the accusations flying we give the impression that the problem is rampant. Every time somebody makes an unsubstantiated claim and doesn’t back it up with a protest or getting the other guys in the class to approach the driver gives the impression to me that cheating is tolerated. It may be difficult (and expensive) to prove cheating but complaining about it without proof only seems to make matters worse.

And of course there are issues of “creative rules interpretation” like reinforcing a subframe before it cracks or “substituting” a lightened stock crank pulley. With no place to turn for a ruling on those issues who is to say how far you can go with pushing the rules. Often the only way to know you’ve gone to far is when the steward makes his decision, assuming someone protests you.

I certainly don’t have the answers for these problems, and maybe I’m the only new guy that feels this way. I want to run a keep running a legal car but am I in the minority? More importantly, what can we do to keep giving this impression to new people?


------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Geo]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
The recent topics on legality of this mod and that mod bring up an issue that's been on my mind. As someone new to IT and club racing (I've spent several years in Solo I as both a driver and official) just how common is cheating?

Apparently too common. It ranges from innocuous to nefarious.

We already know that Bob Stretch had a short shifter in his 240SX at the ARRC. While not legal, I personally would categorize it as innocuous. I've heard of many things that are quite nefarious. I've seen things that fall in the middle somewhere.

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
From a new person looking in the impression is that everyone cheats.

Please don't believe that. I can see why you might, but it's not true.

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
All you have to do is walk around the pits and you can hear someone saying that car #XX must be cheating.

Be wary of unfounded allegations. They may be right. Or they may be wrong. If they really think someone it cheating they should put their money where their mouth is and write the paper. Rumors do no one good.

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
The end result is a new guy is left with the impression that everyone is doing it, and getting away with it so why not join in?

If a guy crosses the finish line first, but is cheating, is he still a winner? Ask yourself that question. I hope you come up with the right answer.

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
There are some people who seem to stretch the rules to a point of being all but indistinguishable from cheating but that's a definite grey area and they are still trying to work within the rules even if the justification seems illogical at best.

Some rules are not as clear to some as they are to others. Some rules leave doors open. Sometimes those doors need a secret decoder ring to figure out and others just need someone to read differently than everyone else. Pushing an interpretation is a lot different from knowingly cheating.

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
But with all the accusations flying we give the impression that the problem is rampant. Every time somebody makes an unsubstantiated claim and doesn’t back it up with a protest or getting the other guys in the class to approach the driver gives the impression to me that cheating is tolerated.

Or could it be that those who don't put their money where their mouth is are just full of hot air?

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
It may be difficult (and expensive) to prove cheating but complaining about it without proof only seems to make matters worse.

Amen. Club racing, at least regional club racing, seems to have a rather different culture regarding protesting suspected cheaters than what I understand is the culture in solo II. Not saying it's right.

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
And of course there are issues of “creative rules interpretation” like reinforcing a subframe before it cracks or “substituting” a lightened stock crank pulley. With no place to turn for a ruling on those issues who is to say how far you can go with pushing the rules. Often the only way to know you’ve gone to far is when the steward makes his decision, assuming someone protests you.

There is that. There is also a way to get an official ruling. That costs money however.

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
I certainly don’t have the answers for these problems, and maybe I’m the only new guy that feels this way. I want to run a keep running a legal car but am I in the minority? More importantly, what can we do to keep giving this impression to new people?

Good question. I don't have the answers. I can come up with theories, but they have to work within the environment that exists.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Quickshoe]

Deleted see below.

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 09, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

[quote]Geo wrote:

Some rules are not as clear to some as they are to others. Some rules leave doors open. Sometimes those doors need a secret decoder ring to figure out and others just need someone to read differently than everyone else. Pushing an interpretation is a lot different from knowingly cheating.


Very well put.

[Quickshoe]

On edit--

initial post wasn't very constructive and sounded more like whinning.

All you can do is play by the rules and do whatever you can to force others to do the same. This isn't "if you can't beat them, join them"

HOW ANYBODY TAKES PRIDE IN WINNING IN A CAR THAT IS ILLEGAL IS BEYOND ME. CHEATERS SUCK !!!!

[RacerBill]

Matt Rowe: I have been following this forum for a while, and hope that most racers refrain from 'cheating'. I have also seen rules stretched to the limit. I worry about how far I can go repairing floor board rust, and then I see cars with thick diamond plate being used. Well, my goal is to have as much fun as possible, and I will do my best to accomplish that without worrying about 'cheaters'.

By the way, please email me at [email protected]. I am preparing an identical twin to your car and would like to exchange information.

[Matt Rowe]

I'm sorry you took it as whining, and I'm a little unsure why. What I was trying to get across is that whining about cheaters without following through with action to prove it one way or the other only furthers the image that cheating is tolerable.

So the point was to get people to realize that accusations of cheating are counterproductive without both proof and the willingness to follow through and correct it. I'm sorry you missed that.

I certainly wasn't advocating the "if you can't beat them join them" mentality. But as much as it's worthless to win in a cheating car, it's equally worthless to lose to a guy with a more liberal interpretation of the rules and never now it.

------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Catch22]

I've always felt that there are 4 kinds of cheating in club racing...

1. You do something that is technically illegal, but doesn't give you a competitive advantage at all. You do it for financial reasons. You gain no advantage, but the rulebook doesn't allow for it, so its illegal. Typically these things are let go by your peers and you aren't considered to be a "cheater."

2. You honestly didn't realize what you did was illegal. Not reading the rules isn't an excuse. Not understanding them (within reason) can be. You're still DQ'ed, but not considered to really be a "cheater." At least not the first time it happens.

3. You take advantage of something in the rules. A "gray area" or an rule that "leaves room for interpretation." Someone protests, the protest is upheld.
Some would consider you a "cheater," others wouldn't. This one depends on specifics and individuals involved.

4. You blatantly, knowingly, do something to the car that's obviously illegal and gives you an advantage. You get caught. You will be known as a "cheater." Period.
Just go ahead and sew a scarlet "C" on your Sparco.

Thats my take at least.
And at any given club race weekend, anywhere in the country, with any sanctioning body, you have some of all of the above going on.

------------------
#22 ITC Honda Civic
3rd Place 2004 ARRC
1st Place 2004 ARRC Enduro

[wbp]

My impression, after spending lots of time lately in the tech shed (Tech Steward at SIC and ARRC for example)is that a very large majority of the cars running up front are "legal", ie, fully conforming to rules. Not all.
But more of the cars back in the pack do not fully conform. But it appears to me that many of the items not conforming are either errors in understanding the rules, or things done to make the car faster that really don't help.
The fellows up front are more carefull, thoughtfull and knowledgeable, generally.
Just my impression, I hope you understand.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
I'm sorry you took it as whining, and I'm a little unsure why. What I was trying to get across is that whining about cheaters without following through with action to prove it one way or the other only furthers the image that cheating is tolerable.

So the point was to get people to realize that accusations of cheating are counterproductive without both proof and the willingness to follow through and correct it. I'm sorry you missed that.

I certainly wasn't advocating the "if you can't beat them join them" mentality. But as much as it's worthless to win in a cheating car, it's equally worthless to lose to a guy with a more liberal interpretation of the rules and never now it.

Whoa Matt, sorry guy. I meant my initial post that I deleted was not productive and sounded more like whinning. That is why I deleted it.

Sorry again. Not what I meant at all.

Boy, what an ass I must have sounded like.

[lateapex911]

Excellent post, Matt. Search for "A Protest Story" by me for one reason that protests are extremely difficult to pull off.

Note that, through the whole thread, not one person provided a challenge to either the facts, nor the presentation of the facts. Nor did I get "the other side" in a personal email, and my email is plainly listed, and has been for years, right at my sig. I was surprised by that.

It was a pretty tense time, and I thought we did our homework, but it was nearly for naught. It's an example of how the system can be crippled. Stories of officials "talking protesters out" of lodging a protest are also legion.

I solo'ed for a while, and was part of some protests at the Solo II Nationals, which were upheld. It was my impression that the Stewards were more accustomed to receiving, and conducting protests, than I see in the club racing world.

As was stated above, the "climate" seems different.

I think part of that is the fact that, historicaly, Solo has been predominately "stock" cars, and deviations from stock are more black and white. Here in IT, deviations from stock are allowed by the rule book, and the limits can be stretched, sometimes to ridiculous lengths.

The other issue that I "hear" is the 'justification' that the CRB classed the car incorrectly, and that taking liberties is "ok" to "even things up".
I have learned too often about cars that I have raced against being illegal. More than allegations, these have been confirmed. Surprisingly enough, I know of many cars that have been sold in illegal states. The new owner then goes through the car, removing the illegal parts that were installed, or puts back the missing parts.

As the seller of such a car, you really have to have a lot of (blind) faith in the buyer to not rat you out. And, often the buyers don't, as they don't want to be branded a "snitch", I guess.

While I don't think it's rampant, nor does "everybody do it", it is way more widespread than I think is acceptable.

In a self policing system, we have to look at ourselves, and write the paper, but too often we lack the commitment, or the system discourages us.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited December 10, 2004).]

[apr67]

Not to sound too Bill Clinton like, but define cheating.

Nowhere in the IT rules does it say you can deck the living crap out of a block to raise the compression ratio to the IT allowed maximum.

But this is a common practice.

How do I know (as a tech inspector) that you had to deck the block that much to clean it up, or wether you did that to a brand new engine?

I don't consider it cheating, because to be a cheater you have to be caught cheating. That would not be possible in this instance.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
As the seller of such a car, you really have to have a lot of (blind) faith in the buyer to not rat you out. And, often the buyers don't, as they don't want to be branded a "snitch", I guess.

Or...they could be working with the previous motor builder to supply parts and labor to make things right at no expense to themselves and no knowledge to the prior owner. 'Snitching' someone out wouldn't be in their best interest. Maybe, no official paper was written, but the new owner thought "that win was too easy" and takes the motor to someone well respected in that community for a complete teardown and inspection to see what is up. Find a few things wrong, some of which would be very expensive to fix...so you give the prior motor builder the opportunity to make it right. No need to spread the word...it will get around all by itself.

"CHEATERS SUCK"

-Daryl DeArman

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by apr67:
...to be a cheater you have to be caught cheating...

If I go out to race and beat you with illegal stuff but don't get caught...I didn't cheat you out of a win?

Why kind of logic is that?

Are you serious..or just trying to stir things up?

[Matt Rowe]

Quickshoe,

Your comment did come off a little harsh, until I found out I misinterpretted it. But, no harm, no foul.

Lateapex911,

I've actually already read your protest story when it came out and was really impressed with how thoroughly prepared you were. And I was thoroughly annoyed with the execution once inspection began. I've actually spoken to some of stewards involved as well as some other stewards who knew of the protest and their take on it varies a little but is generally enlightening. But it defintely sends the wrong message when someone takes the time and effort to do things the right way and the outcome doesn't even deter anyone else from trying to pull something similar. Self policing is one thing and necessary but once it's in the stewards hands we should be able to trust that the rules will be followed.

Actually it seems like my comments on my past experience were misread. Although I've run a few Solo II's my experience has been mainly in Solo I events, hillclimbs and non-passing flat tracks. Definitely a unique environment and class participation and car prep is low enough that we haven't had a single formal protest in at least 5 years. So it is a completely different animal than club racing.

As far as "misclassed" or underdog cars taking liberties on rules I can certainly relate as I don't think my car has a chance in hell at winning in ITA. But, I knew going in that it didn't have a chance, I built the car anyway to get experience with a car I already knew and could maintain. The frustration comes when you want to do something simple and logical, like a short shifter, but that is not allowed yet a MOTEC is? I don't think anyone can look at those kind of situations without shaking their head in disbelief.

Rules creep is a problem, but a lack of logical or cost effective alternatives drives even more people to stretch or break the rules. Finding the balance between the two is the problem.

------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by apr67:

Nowhere in the IT rules does it say you can deck the living crap out of a block to raise the compression ratio to the IT allowed maximum.

The standard isn't 'how much can I cut off the top of the block', it's the compression ratio you end up with. You can write an unenforceable rule that defines the max. cut to clean or true-up a block, but that's not what has been done. The rule says you can raise compression a half-point. If you cut the head and/or deck, and you're still at or under that half-point, you're legal. If you over-do it, you're not legal.

Pretty simple.

[theenico]

Originally posted by apr67:
Not to sound too Bill Clinton like, but define cheating.

Nowhere in the IT rules does it say you can deck the living crap out of a block to raise the compression ratio to the IT allowed maximum.

But this is a common practice.

How do I know (as a tech inspector) that you had to deck the block that much to clean it up, or wether you did that to a brand new engine?

I don't consider it cheating, because to be a cheater you have to be caught cheating. That would not be possible in this instance.

OK, I'll bite

Websters defines cheating as: the act of defrauding by deceiptful means.

My interpretation of this, as pertains to the SCCA, is that a cheater is someone who knowingly uses something illegal to gain a competitive advantage.

With that said,I enjoy seeing, hearing, and discussing creative rules interpretation, so long as the implementation of said "interpretation" isn't way out in the questionable "grey area" of legality. Part of what makes this club so fun, is that the people come from a wide array of backgrounds and, often times, can offer a different perspective on how a rule is read.

I definitely do not condone cheating, but I do believe that people make mistakes. I also think that, at the races, walking around the paddock with an open mind (and a couple beers ) and just talking to your fellow competitors can go a long way. If you think someone is cheating you should approach them (prferably with a smile and a spare beverage) and try to discuss the matter. If they are unreceptive or give an impression of being deceptive, then file a protest, but don't spread unfounded rumors. Rumors always do more harm than good, and are counter productive. If you can't say anything good (or get some people to chip in for a protest fee) don't say anything at all.



------------------
Nico Prelogar
ITB/GP Scirocco listed in IT classifieds

[apr67]

No where in the ITCS does it say you can deck the block.

So, what makes this legal?

[bldn10]

"The standard isn't 'how much can I cut off the top of the block', it's the compression ratio you end up with. You can write an unenforceable rule that defines the max. cut to clean or true-up a block, but that's not what has been done. The rule says you can raise compression a half-point. If you cut the head and/or deck, and you're still at or under that half-point, you're legal. If you over-do it, you're not legal.
Pretty simple."

I run a rotary and don't know much about the technical aspects of this but I am a lawyer and do know a little about interpreting rules. 17.1.4.D.1.l arguably allows up to .025" to be taken off the head to increase compression. However, even if the head is within that spec, if the result is that comp. is raised more than .5, it is illegal. Conversely, if you stay w/i that .5 but take more than .025" off the head, it is likewise illegal. D.1.p requires that all "engine components not otherwise listed in these rules shall meet factory specifications for stock parts." Other than overboring and blueprinting I don't see any authorized significant block modifications. The limitation on comp. does not mean that you can do anything to reach that result even if it violates other rules; it means that you can make all the AUTHORIZED modifications you want as long as you don't increase comp. more than .5. Now that is indeed simple. At least IMHO.

[Greg Amy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">...So, what makes this legal?</font>

The shop manual specifications allow milling the head(s) and/or block within certain service limits. Therefore, to be legal, the head(s) and block deck height must be within these limits *and* result in a compression ratio within 1/2-point of stock. - GA