April Fastrack

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
As far as the Rabbit GTI not being an ITC car, how about gathering a little supporting data. Get Chris' fast lap times in his ITB Rabbit GTI, as well as lap times from other people that run the same car. Now, compare those lap times to the current ITC record at the respective tracks the lap times are from. Show me cars that are running under the ITC record, and you'll convince me that it's not an ITC car. Until then, it's all just speculation.

Since Bill is using the MARRS series for some of his examples, here are lap times at Summit last year for the only ITB Rabbit GTI I know of vs. the winning ITC car for each race the Rabbit ran.

MARRS 1: 1:33.551 vs 1:33.831
MARRS 4: 1:33.952 vs 1:34.900
MARRS 9: 1:34.210 vs 1.34.559

By those numbers alone it looks like you'd be turning a mid-pack ITB car in the MARRS series into a series winning car unless it was saddled w/ more weight. But who in their right mind would make a decision on those numbers alone?

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Gregg Ginsberg
http://www.ginsberg.org
'89 CRX Si -- MARRS ITA #72
WDCR-SCCA Rookie of the Year 2003

[This message has been edited by Gregg (edited March 03, 2005).]

[bldn10]

I heard somewhere that the fuel rule changes had to do more w/ safety and health than leveling the playing field, although that obviously is relevant. Some people, perhaps at The Runoffs, were apparently using very volatile, exotic stuff that we just don't even want in the paddock.
[WARNING - EDITORIAL CONTENT]
But, being the resident cynic, I suspect that someone also saw an opportunity to perhaps raise some revenue by seeing if they could get oil cos. to pay a sponsorship fee to be the official supplier of pump gas. After all, we have to make up for all the $ we plowed into Enterprises and will probably never recover. I'm all for increasing sponsorships and revenue but the interests of members/racers has to come first and foremost.

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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Gregg:
...here are lap times at Summit last year for the only ITB Rabbit GTI I know of vs. the winning ITC car for each race the Rabbit ran.... But who in their right mind would make a decision on those numbers alone?

A question... WHAT car was the ITC car used in the comparison???

Another question... WHAT were the finishing results of the other ITC cars, of different makes than the car in the question above, in the same races? (how did their times compare to the winning cars??)

Just curious...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
A question... WHAT car was the ITC car used in the comparison???

Another question... WHAT were the finishing results of the other ITC cars, of different makes than the car in the question above, in the same races? (how did their times compare to the winning cars??)

Just curious...

Really doesn't matter because the data is flawed. Unless you can provide same day same prep same driver same tire data the comparison has no meaning.
This argument is a case unhappy it can't happen fast enough. Some of this stuff is gonna take a little time to fix. You all keep up the good work and let the shi**y attitudes just be ignored cause that's whats happening. A couple of people will choose to twist the context of your own words everytime you reply to their negative postings. Please note that I have been told of several Neons that are in the process because they feel they now have a chance. I think you will find this is going on all over with some of the new respectful treatment IT is getting from the CRB and the BOD. People should be happy these classes are not being treated as the bastard child of SCCA because of the hard work of a few people.

P.S. to use track times as any form of comparison you would also need to know the cars being driven are legal. To many times over the years I have seen the big dog ends up not meeting all of our rules...

[Jake]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
There have been plenty of cars/requests that we have put in a holding pattern in order to make sure the CRB and the BoD are in full support of these types of one-time changes. We think they will be - but we must be patient.

Are the RX7 and MR2 in holding patterns? When I try to play the "race results" game, I can't find any results where an ITA MR2 bests the top ITB car's time.

[ITANorm]

Originally posted by Jake:
Are the RX7 and MR2 in holding patterns? When I try to play the "race results" game, I can't find any results where an ITA MR2 bests the top ITB car's time.

In MiDiv - the fastest ITB cars ARE the GTI's - and the quickest of the MR2 / RX7 ITA contingent rarely, if ever, comes out on top. What confuses me is that we have the GTI being touted as a candidate for ITC, while the MR2 and RX7 (which can't routinely keep up with a well prepped & driven GTI) are being told they're too fast for ITB. Go figure.


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Norm - #55 ITA, '86 MR2. [email protected]

Website: home.alltel.net/jberry

[OTLimit]

Originally posted by ITANorm:

In MiDiv - the fastest ITB cars ARE the GTI's -

That is true Norm, but they are Golf GTIs, and not Rabbits.

And I am leaving this discussion at that....


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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by ITANorm:
What confuses me is that we have the GTI being touted as a candidate for ITC,...

Norm,

Please don't confuse someone saying something "should" take place, as making it a "candidate" for ITC...

I think the Fastrack was clear that this car is NOT a candidate for ITC as far as the ITAC/CRB is concerned...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
A question... WHAT car was the ITC car used in the comparison???

Another question... WHAT were the finishing results of the other ITC cars, of different makes than the car in the question above, in the same races? (how did their times compare to the winning cars??)

Just curious...

As stated, I always listed the winning ITC car, regardless of make. But, I believe grjones's Fiesta was one and a 510 won at least one of those listed.

You can see the 2004 MARRS results here: http://www.wdcr-scca.org/results/index.htm



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Gregg Ginsberg
http://www.ginsberg.org
'89 CRX Si -- MARRS ITA #72
WDCR-SCCA Rookie of the Year 2003

[itracer]

Just data for you to consider. The Rabbit GTI is fully preped, with good driver and at minimum weight. Most important - it is legal.

Links to the web sites are provided as are the sanction numbers and dates.

This is two different tracks within the same year:

Event: Pig Roast I NERRC/NARRC-Sanct#04-RS-169-S
Run: G6 Race - ITS ITB
Date: 7/17/2004
Track: NHIS

01:21.142 -- ITC 1st (Honda)
01:19.494 – ITB 1st (Volvo)

01:21.931-- ITB Rabbit GTI: (5th out of 16)
Would have been 3rd in ITC (based on lap times)

http://www.ner.org/RR1/results/04/0718nhis...g1-race-web.pdf


Event: NARRC Runoffs 04-RS-184-S
Run: Grp01 Race ITA,ITC,SRX7
Date: 10/2/04
Track: Limerock LRP

01:06.0 – ITC 1st (VW Rabbit)
01:05.0 – 1st ITB (Volvo)

01:07.0 -- ITB Rabbit GTI
Would have been tied for 3rd with a Ford Escort and VW Rabbit (based on lap times)

http://www.nyr-scca.com/narrc_results.htm


------------------
Jason
ITB 17 (NER SCCA)
VW Scirocco

[Joe Harlan]

Event: NARRC Runoffs 04-RS-184-S
Run: Grp01 Race ITA,ITC,SRX7
Date: 10/2/04
Track: Limerock LRP

01:06.0 – ITC 1st (VW Rabbit)
01:05.0 – 1st ITB (Volvo)

01:07.0 -- ITB Rabbit GTI
Would have been tied for 3rd with a Ford Escort and VW Rabbit (based on lap times)

http://www.nyr-scca.com/narrc_results.htm

Ok color me stupid but how can you compare ITB to ITC when they aren't even in the same run group? ITC is at the bottom of one run group with faster cars which means they get lot of empty track and a good tow down the front straight from time to time.(best lap means nothing)
Looks like the ITB guys are spending all their time trying to get around spec miata's.

What shocks do these cars all have what headers, How much dyno time. It all counts when trying to figure this stuff out. Saying an 1800cc rabbit should be moved to ITC so a 1600CC rabbit could kick it's ass by 1 full second doesn't fly. Something is wrong with this picture.

[gran racing]

Is the rumor that we may have to buy gas on-line really true? I guess it makes us all buy from one source but this seems crazy!

http://www.hiperfuels.com/index.cgi?PageTo...ndedDepts=81048



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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Norm,

Please don't confuse someone saying something "should" take place, as making it a "candidate" for ITC...

I think the Fastrack was clear that this car is NOT a candidate for ITC as far as the ITAC/CRB is concerned...

Yeah Darin, and if you recall, there have recently been other reclassification requests that were shot down, only to be approved a couple of months later.


Anyway, to answer your question regarding those results, the winning ITC cars were a 510, a Fiesta, and a Ford EXP. Other top ITC cars were Hondas and VW's (both Rabbits and Sciroccos), and I think I saw a Fiat 124 in there. Fast laps of the top 5 ITC cars are w/in a second or two of each other.

Gregg,

First off, I don't think I've ever said that, if moved, the Rabbit GTI shouldn't get some weight. Darin and Andy have both said that the model puts it in ITC @ 2250 - 2275#. Add 100# to the car, and you're probably going to see those lap times go up by .5 - 1.0 seconds. Sure makes those lap times look pretty equal. But, you're right, nobody in their right mind would (or should) make a decision based on a few cars over a couple races, at one track. But, when you start looking at data from multiple cars, w/ multiple drivers, at multiple tracks, you can see trends in the data. And with a large and varied sample, the prep level / legality of individual cars becomes an insignificant factor.

Darin,

You're right, I look at things from my perspective. That's what people do, look at things based on the information they have. Like when I call Topeka and am told that my request is not on the agenda, and has not been tabled. I'll ask you again, how would you interpret that? Thoughout this whole debate, you have yet to present any emperical or fact-based information to support anything you've said. What you have done, is make a bunch of wild claims, that when called on, you couldn't back up. You can take your arrogant self-rightousness and shove it.

Andy,

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, you folks have developed an objective classification model. It should be applied to all the cars listed in the ITCS to see where they fall, vis-a-vis the model.

Also, why would a weight correction be only a one-time event? Newly classified cars can have their weights adjusted several times, why would currently classified cars only get one shot? And yes, it's true, it doesn't appear that anything has been done to speed-up any cars, in their current class. That being said, w/ the exception of the BMW restrictor plate (which was supposed to be a rare occurence), what has been done that actually required PCAs? All of the downward reclassifications w/ weight changes were already legal, pre-PCAs.




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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

Originally posted by gran racing:
Is the rumor that we may have to buy gas online...?

Woo-hoo! Only $11 a gallon. Plus shipping of course...

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited March 03, 2005).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Like when I call Topeka and am told that my request is not on the agenda, and has not been tabled. I'll ask you again, how would you interpret that? Thoughout this whole debate, you have yet to present any emperical or fact-based information to support anything you've said. What you have done, is make a bunch of wild claims, that when called on, you couldn't back up. You can take your arrogant self-rightousness and shove it.

Bill... You could have just asked Andy, George, Me, or any of the other ITAC guys... we'd have told you what the story was... (of course, you'd actually have to believe what we say...)

As for the rest of this drivel... I stand by what I've said, including things we've agreed not to discuss again in public... I may not have all the answers, but I have not been making "wild claims" with no basis... From the BMW in ITS all the way down, each move we make is done with the intent of making the right moves for IT...

As I've said before, just because YOU don't like it, that doesn't make it wrong...

Luckily for you you had another class you could go to. Hopefully you are finding some comfort and satisfaction there...

Guess it's a good thing for you that you got out of IT when you did... otherwise, some of these decisions might actually effect you and then where would you be???

By the way... The ITB lap record at Road America is 2:53 and change in a Rabbit GTI. The ITC record is a low 2:58 in a Datsun 510 with an illegal 5 speed in it.( this was set this year) This information was sent to me privately, so take from it what you will...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited March 03, 2005).]

[lateapex911]

Ok, I'll thow some in as well..

I know an extremely well driven GTI, and very well prepped as well, that can cover the fast volvos with a blanket in the corners and dive way deep on braking, but the straights are just too long for him in most cases. So, from that one little insignificant observation over a year or two at a few tracks, what can we conclude? Um..not too much.

But from a lot of similar observations with known prep levels, bla bla bla, we might get part of the picture. And add to that the actual static data, and we might have something.

(On the surface, I would raise my eyebrows if the car got moved...there are SO many better candidates...and you DON't want to get me started there! MR2 does come to mind, though....)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[pgipson]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Woo-hoo! Only $11 a gallon. Plus shipping of course</font>

And only $4 a gallon hazmat fee

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Spec RX7 #11
Scottsdale AZ

[Bill Miller]

Well Darin, a quick search of the web gave a race report from August, 2000, in which, a 510 did set the lap record at Road America, at a 2:57.755, bettering Jamie Blair's old record of 2:58.158. Hardly a low 2:58, and hardly set this year. Haven't found anything on the ITB record yet. I'm curious though, who's car was it, and when was it set?

Jake,

I agree 200% that there are other cars that need help, and that the MR2 is high on the list.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Joe Harlan]

http://www.scca-milwaukee.org/RoadRacing/2...004_Results.pdf


But you fail to give the whole story billy boy....ITB GTI at a 2:55 seams a little quick for ITC....Kinda funny you acuse Darin of talkin shit but then yo turn around and only use the fact that fit your needs. Sad really because you could use the sytem and your VW information to help get the car fixed instead of just trying to argue all the time.

[Bill Miller]

What did I leave out Joe? My search didn't produce the page that you did, but it did show an ITC lap record that was set in 2000, that was under 2:58 (Darin's claim was that it was a low 2:58).

Now, I fear that you've fallen into the same trap that Norm did. Just because it says "VW GTI", you assume that it's a Rabbit GTI. Could be, but not necessarily the case. The A2 ('85 - '92) cars are also referred to as GTI's. So, unless you know that the car in question is actually a Rabbit GTI, you can't use that data point. Does anyone hear actually know the driver of that car? Is he on here? Does anyone know if that car is a Rabbit or a Golf? So who's talking shit now?

As far as using the system to fix the car, I've tried that, on numerous occasions. The ITAC folks (at least Darin and Andy) have said that the current Rabbit GTI weight in ITB, is above what their model predicts. I have sent multiple requests for a weight correction, only to get answers that range from 1)Correct as classified 2)Referred to AC (w/ no follow up) 3)Ignored and not even acknowledged. Don't know about you, but that's what I call trying to use the system.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608