April Fastrack

[apr67]

It's fine to base the decision on a Rabbit GTI on the fact that it is too much car for ITC.

It's also fine to use the knowledge and expertise of an Adhoc member.

But what was orginally stated was not accurate, and that was all I had a bone to pick with. And yes, I goofed up by taking your statments to mean that some fast Rabbit GTI's existed.

[bldn10]

"As far as the fuel goes.... I will always run pump gas from a gas station. I don't know anything about additives so I will never bother with them. I will however use cheap gas. I haved used fuel at the track but only in emergencies and then it was the lowest octane AKA the cheapest available. I normally use 91 sunoco and fill up my old dirty fuel cans that my dad used when he was racing in IT. Keep IT cheap and always allow pump gas!"

Stephen and Daryl, check out the new rule -"The SCCA will publish a list of leaded and unleaded fuels that are allowed for use in SCCA events...." You will NOT use Sunoco 91 unless it is on the list. You will not use Exxon if it is not on the list. Or BP or Shell or Texaco or Citgo or Costco or "cheap gas" if they are not on the list. You will buy what they ("our" club) tells you to buy, and perhaps where they tell you to buy it. What gas gets on the exalted list? Again, my fear is that it will be the supplier(s) that cut(s) the biggest sponsorship check(s). Watch for the big press release: "SCCA today announced that (fill in the blank) has been named as the official supplier of pump fuel for SCCA Club Racing events." Hooray.

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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[gran racing]

If they told me that I had to use $7.00 per gallon gas I will NOT use that. I am totally against someone doctoring up fuel to gain a performance benefit; hopefully the rule will be reasonable.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Greg Amy]

Ditto. The day they mandate I buy all fuel from the track will be the day you've got carte-blanche to protest me with no retribution. With the exception of selected key events (e.g., the ARRC in RA) you can plan on my using whatever fuel I buy from the local street pumps.

[dickita15]

I am worried about the fuel issue as well so in Kansas City at he open road racing board meeting I asked the question. I was told that the BOD was pushing the RRB to find a solution and that they came up with a few ways to go and that this had the lowest downside but that they had found holes in it and that he BOD was coming around to the position that a fuel list would not work.

Doing this at the runoffs is a compromise. I think they feel they have to do something.

I would recommend we all lobby our directors to never let this rule expand beyond the runoffs.
dick patullo

[Daryl DeArman]

So, $600+/race for tires, $250+/- race entry + all the wear items on the car you must account for, travel to and from and people are willing to be disquallified because they are saving $50-75 a weekend on fuel? (By using $2/gal instead of $7/gal fuel).

I don't know that your fuel is Chevron 91 or Shell or Mobil, etc. I can only know that it isn't the spec fuel if it tests different. Not what it is or what you have or have not done...

Why spend all the time and money to get there and leave yourself vulnerable to a disqualification over saving $50 on fuel???

I can appreciate resisting change just for the sake of change. What if the event supps list 5 different race fuels and you are free to purchase it anywhere you want?

[Racerlinn]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I can appreciate resisting change just for the sake of change. What if the event supps list 5 different race fuels and you are free to purchase it anywhere you want?[/B]</font>

Because Sunoco in Kansas City may not neccesarily be the same as Sunoco in Atlanta.

It's the rules enforcement that needs help, not the fuel sources.

[gran racing]

If I only could race on this budget you talk about. But guess what, I can't.

And yes, adding $50 - $75 per event adds up. There are many other things I can think of doing with that. Again, we are talking about regional CLUB racing here.

Out of curiosity, what is involved in determining if fuel meets the rules? Is this a quick test that can be determined at the track? Would it then be necessary to go to nationals after to get verified? And yes, I'll be running the stock gas from Exxon or your other favorite local gas station.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Daryl DeArman]

The test I am familiar with is the high desert engineering test. It consists of dipping the probe into a neutralizing solution...dip it in the fuel sample...read the meter. Next...

Dave Gran,

My point was not that the $50-70 is small potatoes, it is that you have already invested a ton of cash, blood and sweat to get there. Made a huge effort to make sure you are legal and then decide to leave yourself vulnerable to disqualification by saving $50-75.

I have heard rumors about racing fuel being different from region to region...yet I have never viewed anything on any of the literature on their websites or MSDS that come with the fuel (when requested) that shows any difference in blend by region. Besides that is a mute point if you buy it at the track, the track fuel must be one of the control samples....don't care what it is, or what it reads on the meter...if yours' matches you are golden.

This really is quite simple.

[pgipson]

The difference in fuel costs is probably small, but the hassle factor will add to the cost also. In PHX we have one fuel supplier (Sunoco -- official fuel of NASCAR) at PIR and another (VP) at Firebird. Plus you can but U76 100 unleaded at stations locally ($5.35 per gallon recently). But can you use the same containers for all 3 different types? Some of the stuff I have read indicates that plastic jugs we all use will actually affect the ability of fuel to pass the DC test, since the hyrocarbons can leach into the plastic and essentially intermix with the new fuel.

For me, there are just too many questions right now that publishing a list won't answer.
One is would regions have the ability to supercede the fuel list through the supps for a regional race?

I have sent 2 e-mails to the CRB (one last year, another on Sunday night) suggesting enforcement of rules that ban hazardous substances would be a more appropriate remedy. On the last I copied my BoD member.

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Spec RX7 #11
Scottsdale AZ

[RSTPerformance]

Daryl or anyone else that agrees with this rule need to go to nationals and get out of REGIONAL racing. $50-$75 dollars is more than I am willing To spend on a hotel room a night. (Yes I always try to camp!) Last year I called my brother at home had him book a hotel online while I was sitting in the parking lot to save myself $10.00 Regionals are for people like me. I rent an apartment and race when I save enough money to. I don't own a house becasue I choose to race. We all don't have money!

I WILL NEVER BUY GAS AT THE TRACK. EVER.

Everyone that runs regional racing should be against this new rule. you need to understand that all these addititives added to 89 octane fuel will still be cheaper than running the track gas. It is all a waste of time and money for regionals and should be reserved for nationals championship races only.

PS: does anyone know who came up this rule originally and who supports it wether directors or officials in Kansas. I would like to know who not to vote for ever!


Stephen Blethen

[Daryl DeArman]

Stephen,

Just because I believe in certain things doesn't mean that I shouldn't have the choice to participate at whatever level I wish.

For your information, I have an extremely modest budget! I race a Vee because it is cheap. To me, it is all about the race and not the ride.

I drive a 2000 Honda Civic with 150K on the odo as my daily driver because I'd rather race more than have a nicer car.

I utilize a RV for a tow vehicle/motel/kithcen to save money. I paid less for a 2 year old RV than a new truck would have cost and have never had to pay for a track motel. Insurance is cheaper too.

I have a nitrogen bottle in the trailer because it was cheaper than a compressor, quieter for my paddock neighbors and doesn't require electricity or me to run my generator. I don't utilize air tools and $20 worth of nitrogen will last me a season.

Because I am so cheap, I don't think $30+/gallon race gas has any place anywhere but F1 or NHRA top fuel. As long as there is a test parameter to meet, there will be a gas formulated to pass that test. Require a group of spec fuels, include a pump gas from the station closest to the track for that matter and the problem is solved.

If your event supps said you must run "race gas X from the track" OR "VP Red" OR "Costco 91 octane from down the street pump #12" and they had a control sample of each how is this hitting you in the pocket?

Please enlighten me.

[This message has been edited by Daryl DeArman (edited March 02, 2005).]

[Scooter]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
As far as the fuel goes.... I will always run pump gas from a gas station. I don't know anything about additives so I will never bother with them. I will however use cheap gas.

That's what I'm sayin. I will show up to the track with my crappy pump gas until they kick me out. At which time I'll do something else on weekends.

[Knestis]

I'm with Greg et al. on the fuel issue.

This goes counter to the philosophical position that IT cars (and other regional-only classes) should be "real race cars" but the whole point, it seems to me, should be that we CAN run cheap-o pump gas.

The engines shouldn't require high octane numbers - if they are legal - and the difference in fuel bills between the Milton mini mart and the VIR pump a mile away is not just a few bucks: It's like 300%. My bill (car tank and three jugs) for the 3.5 hour race a couple weeks ago, with a car that gets great mileage on-track, was $57. Make that $180?

It seems like we have a policy position coming out of a cobbled up theory of what the problems are.

If the issue is dangerous stuff in fuel, the test needs to look for dangerous stuff.

If the problem is that the current test can't do that without being befuddled by other, non-hazardous fuel options, then the process becomes a de facto verification that the sample is from a specific source, and the point is lost.

Now, it has ALWAYS been the case that we run the risk of failing a fuel test if we buy carte blance from public sources. When we used to race karts, we knew when the seasonal alcohol content changes happened, and which suppliers used more or less moonshine in their pump gas, for just that reason. (The "baby bottle" water solubility test was the standard.)

That probably ought to be the way we go now, too but I'm a little glad that in NCR Region, the semi-official position of the tech guys is that "It's an IT car. We don't care."

K

[gran racing]

Daryl,
The other issue I see with this is how it could potentially impact new people from entering the sport. For a low budget racer, things having to spend an extra $50 - $70 per race weekend could be the last straw. Not everyone uses Hoosiers. Heck, two years ago I was using SRF BFG tires because I could buy them for $25 each. The point here is that an entry level racer may have a very low budget and this does represent a fairly large increase in the weekend's budget. You may roll your eyes here, but it is true. (I won't even bother asking my wife if I should pay $50 more for track gas versus the local stuff un-doctored. I'd rather deal with the protest then her kick in the butt for wasting money.)

If there is no performance gain in track gas, it just seems like pissing away money. And don't get me wrong, I am totally for having a legal car and understand what you are saying. O.k. I'll stop blabbing here and write my letter to the board.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[apr67]

Originally posted by Knestis:
The engines shouldn't require high octane numbers - if they are legal - and the difference in fuel bills between the Milton mini mart and the VIR pump a mile away is not just a few bucks: It's like 300%. K

I agree with the anger about the new fuel rule. But I think you are wrong when saying IT engines shouldn't require high octane.

Every engine is different. Some of our motors are very efficient, and have a high static compression ratio. When added to the volumentic efficiency, they need 103 or 110 fuel. Other cars may not. The same car that is not as far developed may not. The same car with more miles on its motor may required more (carbon can cause detionation).

I think you will see pitchforks and flaming buckets after a few guys engines get toasted by spec fuel.

Back in the day I remember that we would only purchase our race fuel (VP 103 unleaded) at once source. It wasn't worth the risk that the track would run out of fuel, or that it would be contaminated.

[ddewhurst]

$70 is two nights in a motel. The water bottle don't catch the oxigenators(sp) per the WKA rule. (sorry K.) From what I have read it's a worker thing. How many times can one get DQ'ed for using mini mart gas before they say don't come back? My name is David $2.00/gal mini mart.....................

This rule is being treated just like every other rule/law that don't work. They are adding another rule that will not work either. The solution is real simple. Draw gas from the top three cars. Send said gas to lab. Get results from lab. Legal you keep your position, illegal equals bummer. Cost ya say, everyone pays something additional with their event fee. The nasty stuff will be gone.

Have Fun
David

[Joe Harlan]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">$70 is two nights in a motel.</font>

Not in the places I stay....

I agree about the rule that again won't work. Punishment is that part that works. look at PCA or Vintage...they punish for body contact 13/13 and guess what they have very little...Suspension for juiced fuel will go further than any other sytem out there.

[JohnRW]

Operationally, it would be difficult for the SCCA to designate an 'official' race fuel and then guarantee a ready supply at each track. Tracks have sold fuel supply rights to different fuel companies. Sunoco might work if we were restricted to NASCAR-owed or affiliated tracks (Pocono, WGI, NHIS, Charlotte, etc.) but Sunoco isn't everywhere. SCCA would be very unwelcome if they set up a competing fuel sales stand at many tracks. Buy it from a designated gas station ? HAR ! "Friday night fuel" from the Sinclair station on the corner might be legal, but what about "Saturday morning fuel", after a tanker drops another load of anonymous hydrocarbons into the ground at 5am ?

If it's designated weekend-by-weekend (another reason to read the Supps), how could you manange the 'cross-contamination' problems. How often do you drain and purge your fuel system ? Wanna do it every weekend ? Ask SRF's Chris Current about the fun he had at the 2005 RunOffs trying to get his fuel system, filled with 'legal' Mid-O fuel, to pass the fuel tests. I hear he had to flush his fuel system about 3 times before it would pass the test. Oh joy.

Does anybody sell 'octane reducers' ? Track fuel is generally 94 octane and up, and at least 2 of my cars make more HP with 87 octane than any other fuel.

[OTLimit]

This rule will really affect the checkbooks of people like me. So maybe it is only $50-75/weekend. For one car. Now multiple that by two cars. And the excessive number of weekends that I funded last year. I can (almost) justify this for the Runoffs and ARRC; not for regular regional or national races.

And then they want to complain because car counts are down?

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers