Equal Time - In Defense of "Useless Items"

[Geo]

Do Hoosiers really last longer than a set of slicks or cost any less?



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
Do Hoosiers really last longer than a set of slicks or cost any less?

On these heavy IT cars... I'd think YES...

Additionally, the slicks don't come in all the sizes required for IT sized tire/wheel combinations...

I can't believe we are even discussing slicks on this board or for this class...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
I can't believe we are even discussing slicks on this board or for this class...

I'm not making any sort of pitch for it. I'm just curious why some folks wanted a lot of changes and yet insisted upon DOT tires.

Honestly I can't believe half the things we're discussing.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
Honestly I can't believe half the things we're discussing.

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Catch22]

Do Hoosiers really last longer than a set of slicks or cost any less?

The purchase price of Hoosier DOT radials as opposed to Hoosier slicks is very close.
But wear becomes an issue. From what I've seen, even the hardest compound slick doesn't last as long as the DOT tire, and there is a REALLY soft compound that is stinking fast but only good for a couple of races at best. If your competition has deep enough pockets for THAT... Well...

Its great that we're discussing these things.
GREAT!!!

[grjones1]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
David-

A note here, is that GRJ, in another thread recommends the exclusion of turn signal stalks based on two factors. ... two, everybody he knows has done it anyway, so it might just as well be legal.."

That is not what I said. I said in so many words so many times, many people racing IT read the rule the same way I do, so there must be some validity in our interpretation of the rule. If you are going to paraphrase me or quote me, do it accurately, Jake.
GRJ

[lateapex911]

And this one is hard to define, but KISS should be a constant consideration. Attracting first time races is much easier with simple, stable rules, and cars that are simple and easy to build.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Russ Myers]

Personally, I think we could save even more money by outlawing "R" compound tires. DOT tread wear of 220, minimum.

Russ

[lateapex911]

You know Russ, I was thinking that that was what George was saying, but his second post threw me off.

I agree wholeheartedly. One of, if not THE single biggest buget item every year after the car is built is tires. Outlawing tires like the Hoosier, but allowing tires like the Toyos, which actually get slightly better with age, would easily cut a HUGE budget item at least in half.

That said, I am not sure if a rule could be written that would be effective. But if it could, I would support it with all my might.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited February 22, 2005).]

[Geo]

Don't be so shocked Jake. DOT tires have become stickier and stickier and last a race or two in some cases. I've wondered for a while just how much difference there is between DOT tires and slicks in terms of price and how long they last.

Making a rule based upon tread grade is a non-starter because the grade is different between brands.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Catch22]

Great idea, except that they are both R compound tires. How do you manage that rule?
Mandate a Toyo spec tire for all of IT???
I think not. Toyo can't even reliably keep Spec Miata supplied. Not to mention that they don't even make 2 of the most popular IT sizes (225/45/13 and 225/45/15).

No, the tire rules are fine as they are. If you want to run Toyos, run them. Kumho... Fine. Falken Azenis... Have at it.
I run Hoosiers. They come in the right size for my application, they have great trackside support in my division, and I scored 7 free tires last year on contingencies.
Toyos would have actually cost me ALOT more to run. No freebies.

[SamITC85]

Life expectancy on tires all depends on how you use them and how much you want to spend. I knew IT drivers in the Northeast who would buy a new set of tires every weekend. The same goes for slicks, but you can make both last longer if you don't mind loosing some performance. I will do the same thing with slicks that I did with my DOT tires. 2 new tires on the front(FWD VW) and use them for two race weekends and then move them to the back and put 2 new ones on the front.

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Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit being converted to LPHP
#85 GP Scirocco

[apr67]

How does the Street Mod tire rule in autocross work? It seems sucsessful at this point.

I'd love to see tire costs reduced, but I can't come up with any good ways to do it. A rule such as "Only one set of tires may be used all weekend" (for example) sounds good because it would keep out the super sticky Hoosier Autocross tire (can you say qualifying tire). But I often run crappy tires for enduro qualifying, since the second won't make a hill of beans difference in an hour long race.

I know lots of IT guys who swap tires around on the weekend. Using a tire that has 'just enough' for the next session.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by SamITC85:
I knew IT drivers in the Northeast who would buy a new set of tires every weekend. The same goes for slicks, but you can make both last longer if you don't mind loosing some performance.

"If you don't mind loosing some performance"....

Well, that's just it! Depending on who you talk to, getting two weekends out of set of Hoosiers is nearly impossible, if you want to be at the tires best. Trouble is, somebody will spend the bucks to be there all the time. Result? It costs more to be competitive.

I have thought long and hard about this, and no matter how I approach it, there always seems to be a downside.

Outlaw tires below a certain treadwear rating? Well, Ok, but if I understand it, that number is pretty much meaningless, and how can we confirm the number the manufacturer provides is legit?

Limit the actual use of the tires? I wish...but we aren't F1! Just the manpower that would take from the region is daunting, not to mention all the back and forth shlepping I'd have to do.

Going with a "spec" tire for a nationwide class this large and with so many needs for sizes is just out of the question.

Other than specing a minimum duromenter reading, to be checked by HQ, I can't think of any other solution. Unfortunately, even that one has many holes, and would never work in the real world.

So, for the rest of use who don't win tire bucks, it off to work we go!


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[grjones1]

In no particular order...

** The suggestion that removing stuff is "free" ignores the very real cost of time. Taking out my AC was NOT free - it cost two long evenings of hours for two guys, two pizzas, and - in this case - different belts and pulleys. While the degree of cost is much less with other items, it isn't "free" until it takes NO time at all. Leaving things ON takes NO time at all.

][/B]

K,
"Time" is exactly what is spent when trying to fix a component which is buried behind a mess of useless parts that remain because of a concept built on paranoia (shall we refer to it as the "Production Boogeyman"?) and then having to reinstall those useless parts. I think this may be a fundamental flaw in your proposition.

Removing useless parts and leaving them removed does nothing but save time in the long run.

Production wasn't ruined by an accretion of little well thought out rule changes and discoveries. It was made unaffordable by rulesmakers who had no concern for people with limited budgets and no interest in keeping the category within the range of average incomes or for that matter average mechanical skills.

A little thought, much the same as the reasonable rebuttals to my bumper removal idea (much as I hate to admit it), and close scrutiny of how a specific change might lead to outrageous costs is all that is needed. Not some mindless kneejerk reaction to any change, "because any change will lead to what happened to Production." If necessary and with the communications wizardry we have available to us these days, put a viable change recommendation out for participant vote and let the drivers decide if a specific change is viable. I think we would find that the guys who spend the money (the drivers)would keep things pretty conservative.

GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 24, 2005).]

[Knestis]

I'm not quite sure how we wandered off to the topic of tires but at the end of the day, Jake is right: There is NO solution to the cost issue.

We need to disabuse ourselves once and for all of the notion that rules can legislate budgets. It just won't happen and people who want to go faster will spend money to do so. Tires is one very good way to do that.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited February 24, 2005).]

[grjones1]

We need to disabuse ourselves once and for all of the notion that rules can legislate budgets. It just won't happen and people who want to go faster will spend money to do so.
K
B]

I'm not sure if I'm being ignored so I'll go away, or this last of yours was designed to answer both.

Anyway, forgive my presumption - you can legislate whether or not spending a great deal of money will make you go faster, by keeping out the expensive items (like external reservoir shocks, race cams, flowed heads, lexan windows, etc.) And correct what damage is already done with the ECU mods and changes to fuel injection.
(It still amazes me that those of us with carburetors get no modifications (of course other than a choice of three or so) and those with fuel injection cannot only play with their control module but can play with air intake mechanicals - curious.) Anyway, limiting modifications limits the amount of money one can spend and does help "legislate budgets." Yea, the rich guys will always have fresher tires and motors and pretty paint jobs, but if expensive stuff is not allowed what else can they spend their money on to go fast? I trully beleive IT can remain the most egalitarian category, and still allow minor advantageous changes.

GRJ

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grjones1:

(It still amazes me that those of us with carburetors get no modifications (of course other than a choice of three or so) and those with fuel injection cannot only play with their control module but can play with air intake mechanicals - curious.) GRJ

You are going to have to explain this one further... exactly what "air intake mechanicals" can 'we' FI guys "play with"???

Last time I checked, we are required to retain the entire factory system, and are only allowed to do ECU mods and Fuel-Pressure regs... Air intakes must remain stock up to the "air metering device", which is pretty much analogous to the carb guys getting to use any air cleaner assembly...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited February 24, 2005).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
You are going to have to explain this one further... exactly what "air intake mechanicals" can 'we' FI guys "play with"???

Last time I checked, we are required to retain the entire factory system, and are only allowed to do ECU mods and Fuel-Pressure regs... Air intakes must remain stock up to the "air metering device", which is pretty much analogous to the carb guys getting to use any air cleaner assembly...

I believe the "air metering device" is what I was refering to, but your point is well taken. And of course we can vary mixture by changing jets, problem of course is we cant't carry a technician around under the hood to vary mixtures as conditions (e.g.,barometric pressure) change as do your metering devices (sensors)do or adjust the timing of mixture and flow events. But that's OK, can't bemoan progress.

GRJ

[Knestis]

I've sure seen a lot of stock car and drag racers changing jets at the track, having read their plugs (a la Jack Roush in half of the pics we see of him) and consulted their portable weather instruments (temp, relative humidity, and atmospheric pressure).

K