March FasTrack is up!

[lateapex911]

Drifting might not be racing, but it IS a competition. It's similar in a way to figure skating, gymnastics and diving, to start.

Give credit where credit is due. Do you know how hard it it to autocross at the stock level and even run in the front two or three in Topeka!??!! If you haven't been there, you don't.

Diving, as well, is incredibly difficult sport in which to succeed at at the top level.

Drifting is in it's infancy, and while I wouldn't consider the event to require the same level of athleticism of diving or gymnastics, the good guys are good for reasons. I for one don't think I could jump in a car and compete with them without a lot of practice.

Winning an event in a car that involves elements other than time as the final arbitrator should be respected.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[badal]

Originally posted by zooracer:
I have to admit to being pretty ignorant when it comes to the history of IT rules/changes.
So my question is this. If it was meant to be a showroom stock class for older cars, when did the following become rule,
- porting 1" in on exhaust and intake
- open final drive's
- open ECU
Now notice I didnt mention half point rise in compression or 40 over. The reason for this is these may be unavoidable to keep and old car or engine going after a rebuild, or several rebuild's.
Why didnt everyone on here raise such a stink over these modifications that they were turned down by the board? I mean, I can really see how these mods are taking us closer to production; not turn signal stalks.
And if these mods were in place with the origination of IT, then that means they werent really trying to make a showroom stock class for older cars.
This class is so popular because it is the most inexpensive way to go racing in the SCCA, period.
I wish we could go back in time and start over...
matt

The 1" porting and alternate gears were allowed from day 1.
The old SS arguement is just marketing.
In Spec Miata there was the same deal. I've seen plenty of purpose built SM's, but no ex-SS cars.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[grjones1]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Drifting might not be racing, but it IS a competition. It's similar in a way to figure skating, gymnastics and diving, to start.

Give credit where credit is due. Do you know how hard it it to autocross at the stock level and even run in the front two or three in Topeka!??!! If you haven't been there, you don't.

No, Jake I haven't been at the "Topeka" level, but I have won a number of autocrosses and I was a WDC Region Solo I champion. I appreciate your analogy to diving, etc., but I really can't in good conscience support Drifting as a good starting point for road racing: karting, autocrossing, solo - yes; drifting- no. That's my straightforward opinion - not some kind of wall that separates me from bringing young people into our sport. You guys can find any excuse in the world and fabricate any characterization to impugn an opinion that differs from yours.
GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 19, 2005).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't think that Drifting is the starting point for road racing. BUT, that croud is a huge target market for the SCCA. The Street Touring classes in Solo are the fastest growing...and they aim right at that crowd and the kind of cars they drive.

I have been top 3 at the Solo 2 Nationals, I have won Pro Solo's, I have won National Tours, blah, blah, blah. The skills that they top guys have in drifting will translate to track prowess. It's about car control and positioning. They will just have to learn how to do what I had (and still am) to do...RACE. Driving will be easy...RACING will be the hard part.

BOTTOM LINE? These kids like cool cars - and we have to make sure there are cool cars in ALL the IT classes.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[ddewhurst]

Throw another log on the fire.

How about Ice Racing for car control ?

Have Fun
David

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I don't think that Drifting is the starting point for road racing. BUT, that croud is a huge target market for the SCCA. The Street Touring classes in Solo are the fastest growing...and they aim right at that crowd and the kind of cars they drive.

I have been top 3 at the Solo 2 Nationals, I have won Pro Solo's, I have won National Tours, blah, blah, blah. The skills that they top guys have in drifting will translate to track prowess. It's about car control and positioning. They will just have to learn how to do what I had (and still am) to do...RACE. Driving will be easy...RACING will be the hard part.

AB

Andy,
I get your point and appreciate it. However, having to reteach someone that feathering the throttle and countersteering out of a broadslide is not the fast way around on asphalt (as we all know - and I don't mean we don't have to learn to control a high-speed "drift" [big difference from a "broadslide"]). It flies in the face of "smooth is fast."

I for one gave up autocrossing because it translated to bad habits on the racetrack (too quick turn-ins and the like), but of course that was me and probably not true for everyone. But Drifting as it is being promoted is not teaching good lessons- maybe if we were mentoring prospective stunt men, but that is not (I hope)the idea of SCCA Club Racing.

My point is if road racers are seen to advocate Drifting, they are posturing in opposition to their experience and helping to promote what I see as an adverse exercise. Your argument would suggest that anything related to cars is a good thing. I think not the case. Discretion applies in all matters.
Look, there's nothing wrong with comic books, but I'm never going to convince the kid to pick up Shakespeare if he thinks I believe "Captain Marvel" has any mature literary value. But I grow exceedingly boring, forgive me.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 19, 2005).]

[Banzai240]

To me, Drifting and Ice Racing go right along with Truck racing... Niche parts of the sport at best...

That being said... one needs to ask themselves an important part of this question...

IS the point really the people "drifting", or the cars they drive??

Just like the differences between Road Racers, Circle Racers, and Drag Racers... Each has their own interests...

I'm more interested in getting those CARS into the SCCA, than in getting those Drivers over here... If the cars are here, they will do the attracting of qualified drivers themselves... We (the SCCA Club Racing) are WAY behind the times from a technology standpoint, and there simply isn't a place for these types of cars in modified form currently...

THAT should be the focus... Let the drifters drift, the circle jerkers circle jerk, and the drag racers drag... but let's get the CARS those drifters drive into our side of the sport and generate some interest our direction...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited February 19, 2005).]

[grjones1]

[/B]

For the most part, Darin, I concur. I guess I just have trouble accepting "business" interests over "philosophical" ones. And in no way is this meant as a slur on your proposition.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 19, 2005).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
Here is one thing I know for sure, You come here looking for a fight because it gets you off.

I'm just wondering when in the last 20 years, Joe has had time to garner his expertise in psychology? My goodness the man not only knows how to set camber, he can fix on a person's motivations from a few pages of dialogue. I wonder if the phrase "unabashed presumptuousness" means anything to him?

GRJ

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by grjones1:
No, Jake I haven't been at the "Topeka" level, but I have won a number of autocrosses and I was a WDC Region Solo I champion. I appreciate your analogy to diving, etc., but I really can't in good conscience support Drifting as a good starting point for road racing: karting, autocrossing, solo - yes; drifting- no. That's my straightforward opinion - not some kind of wall that separates me from bringing young people into our sport. You guys can find any excuse in the world and fabricate any characterization to impugn an opinion that differs from yours.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 19, 2005).]

I wish the english language had a better method of distinguising the plural "you" from the singular "you"...

I didn't intend my post to be aimed at any one person, per se, but rather those in the world who scoff at things that are close, but not the same.

When I ride my Ninja down the road, I wave to all bikers that pass in the other direction...but the Harley guys rarely wave back. I don't get it...aren't we all bikers?

My garage has had Mazdas and Porsches and Alfas and GMCs and Dodges and Hondas, an old 67 SS/RS Camaro convertible, and I am tempted right now by a 71 Baracuda convertible....I am a car guy...and I like the variety.

Same holds for racing..I am not a NASCAR fan, but there have been some great NASCAR races...and drag racing is really interesting once you get below the surface. Drifting too...subset or not...it's still a car guy thing that requires and rewards talent.

Sorry if you took it personally...but I think it's safe to say our outlooks are different, and I'm fine agreeing to disagree...



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I wish the english language had a better method of distinguising the plural "you" from the singular "you"...

Texas language does....


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

350!

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Also, it's about as relevant as half the posts on this thread!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[grjones1]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Sorry if you took it personally...but I think it's safe to say our outlooks are different, and I'm fine agreeing to disagree...

OK, Jake.

GRJ

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Geo:
Texas language does....

yea but jake is trying to use english.

dick

[dickita15]

At one of the panel discussions at the national convention it was said that if SCCA could attract 1% of the import tuner crowd to join us it would add 75,000 members. If we were able to expose ourselves to these car people and not allow them to see our contempt for them and how they enjoy cars it is just possible that 1 or maybe even 2% of them might like what we do.
dick patullo

[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited February 20, 2005).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by dickita15:
and not allow them to see our contempt for them and how they enjoy cars it is just possible that 1 or maybe even 2% of them might like what we do.
dick patullo
.]

Dick,
Please allow me to declare that I don't consider my lack of recognition of Drifting as a viable motorsport as an indication of "contempt" for the import tuners. I have nothing but respect for what those guys are getting out of their cars. Thank you.

GRJ

[evanwebb]

How about this: I believe all motorsports (and certainly all amateur motorsports) are basically pointless, except of course for having fun. So, if you decide your fun thing is road racing (which I totally dig) or rallying (which I totally dig) or autocross (which is pretty cool to me, but now quite my thing) or drag racing (which is pretty cool becuase of the whole noise and fumes things, but otherwise I don't find all that interesting) or drifting (which I think is silly), what does it really matter? Just do what you like and have fun.

[grjones1]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> what does it really matter? Just do what you like and have fun.[/B]</font>

What matters Evan is that some us believe that we are helping the breed, i.e., showing what's safe and unsafe and how to improve the performance (and safety) of production cars. And that has been proven out by manufacturers' improvement of their cars for the last 50 years.

And many of us think that we are also concerned with improving (young) people's ability to drive and take care of their cars in a safe and efficient manner.

Yes, fun is at the top of the list, but we may do some good at the same time. At least that's one old participant's take on the matter.
GRJ

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by dickita15:
At one of the panel discussions at the national convention it was said that if SCCA could attract 1% of the import tuner crowd to join us it would add 75,000 members. If we were able to expose ourselves to these car people and not allow them to see our contempt for them and how they enjoy cars it is just possible that 1 or maybe even 2% of them might like what we do.
dick patullo

[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited February 20, 2005).]

Dick,

The import tuner crowd is estimated at 7.5M? Figured it was big, but not that big.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by grjones1:
What matters Evan is that some us believe that we are helping the breed, i.e., showing what's safe and unsafe and how to improve the performance (and safety) of production cars. And that has been proven out by manufacturers' improvement of their cars for the last 50 years.

And many of us think that we are also concerned with improving (young) people's ability to drive and take care of their cars in a safe and efficient manner.

Yes, fun is at the top of the list, but we may do some good at the same time. At least that's one old participant's take on the matter.
GRJ

I wonder about the old "racing improves the breed" concept these days. I just don't think it realy is the case anymore. I think there is a much more symbiotic relationship between automotive racing, and automotive building. Many many advances in racing have come from the production world, not the other way around. A paradyne has shifted.

And at our level, it's all about fun. Evan has an excellent point.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]