March FasTrack is up!

[planet6racing]

Fred:

This is all part of the IT.com silly season. Everyone has all this extra energy that should be put into the cars to make them better (or into getting into shape), but the arguments here take less energy and give you something to do at work.

Every year it is a new topic. 3 years ago it was wiper fluid containers, 2 years ago it was the ECU, last year it was the HVAC, this year it is the turn signal stalks.

I think next year should be the vent on the right side of the dashboard in an MGA...

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Racerlinn]

Originally posted by planet6racing:

I think next year should be the vent on the right side of the dashboard in an MGA...

How about the pros and cons of a new GCR procedure for properly attaching your quick release steering wheel before starting a race?
(sorry Bill, couldn't resist, love that video)

------------------
Steve Linn
'92 ITA Sentra SE-R
www.indyscca.org

[Joe Harlan]

*** WOW ***
Do you guys actually protest things like turn signal stalks when you get beat ???

I don't think anyone would use an issue like this to win a race. I can tell you I would give the competitor a chance to make the car meet the rules first. If somebody chooses to ignore the rule then a protest would be in order. It shouldn't matter if its a stalk,water bottle or a camshaft. should it?

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
...This is all part of the IT.com silly season. Everyone has all this extra energy...

Good. Send some this way.

G

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Racerlinn:
How about the pros and cons of a new GCR procedure for properly attaching your quick release steering wheel before starting a race? (sorry Bill, couldn't resist, love that video)

Having seen this event happen live--from outside the car, thankfully--and given Bill's experience, technical qualifications and documentation skills, I suggest the following sequence of event:

1) Bill writes the spec for properly attaching the QR steering wheel.

2) The world says, "Yes sir!"

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
I don't think anyone would use an issue like this to win a race. I can tell you I would give the competitor a chance to make the car meet the rules first. If somebody chooses to ignore the rule then a protest would be in order. It shouldn't matter if its a stalk,water bottle or a camshaft. should it?

No I guess in the perfect world it should not matter but I see alot of discussion about things on this forum that seem, well trivial. I have been racing for 20 years and I know I have been beat by illegal cams, comp ratios, etc. etc. ( afterall I have raced showroom stock ) but I dont think I have ever been beat by turn signal stalks, washer bottles or lack of, or as in another current topic tubular gussets. Perhaps we should consider "performance enhancement" in our protest in a effort to eliminate frivolous protest???

[Joe Harlan]

Fred we don't disagree here but since you have raced SS you have to agree that all of the things we are talking about count. Change the rules if we all want this stuff gone. Short of that then everybody should be playing by the same set.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Fastfred92:
Perhaps we should consider "performance enhancement" in our protest in a effort to eliminate frivolous protest???

Excellent point...however...make sure you then define how many "washer bottle" type items you can remove becasue they will combine into an item that matters...WEIGHT. You know what I mean?

Like I posted before, you will have to specifically mention, BY NAME, what these little pieces of menutia you are allowed to remove because everyone has there own definition of frivolous.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967

www.flatout-motorsports.com

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
Fred we don't disagree here but since you have raced SS you have to agree that all of the things we are talking about count. Change the rules if we all want this stuff gone. Short of that then everybody should be playing by the same set.

I know I'm going to get smacked for beating a putrified horse, but, Joe, the same authoritative set of rules says "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced, or removed." What do you think that means? Please be reasonable.
GRJ

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grjones1:
"Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced, or removed." What do you think that means?

Does that mean I can put a Trombone in the grill?? Would make a nice airscoop...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by grjones1:
I know I'm going to get smacked for beating a putrified horse, but, Joe, the same authoritative set of rules says "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced, or removed." What do you think that means? Please be reasonable.
GRJ

GRJ,

I think the point is that the glossery in the GCR defines what an instrument is...pertaining to the rules we are governed by. A steering column stalk is just not an instrument according to the GCR. Plain and simple. You have argued it well OUTSIDE the context of the GCR, but guess what? We aren't outside the GCR.

In addition, a removable sterring wheel is not a safety item...First off, it isn't required; second, it is listed in the driver/passenger compartment section - not the safety section...so the removal of a stalk would fall under an illegal modification facilitated by a legal one - which is also specifically disallowed.

We all understand that the removal of the stalks isn't going to win you a race...but really, where does this stuff end? You DON'T have to gut all the 'switches' and 'instruments' out of a dash to facilitate a cage install...come on!

Lock this thread down. It's dead.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967

www.flatout-motorsports.com

[zooracer]

new here, and still learning the GCR...
But, I have read this entire thread, if you can believe it, and here is what I've found.
Take into account I havent met anyone on here.
Grjones presented an idea or interpretation for discussion on here and basically got attacked. His post's were straightforward, not laced with emotion or sarcasm. Not confrontational in any way.
I read the responses to his posts and really got the feeling that some of you guys dont particularly like mr. jones. Although, from his post's, I really cant see why.
Regardless of whether you agree with him or not, it's just a discussion forum.
We all have a really cool common bond, with this road racing lifestyle, something that such a small percentage of the overall population has. Got to keep that in mind.
Personally, I think that if a racer has an older or rarer car (like my suzuki swift) and either the turn signal stalk breaks or was never there, he shouldnt have to go to the dealer or such and pay lots of money for something that is really pointless.
I mean, do they really weigh that much?
I'm all about the cheap. Which is why I picked this class.
matt

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
everyone has there own definition of frivolous.

AB

My modest opinion of frivolous is: would it make a difference in the outcome.. I think a number of members of the advisory board frequent this forum so maybe we should seek to revise the protest process... a suscessful protest for a "non performance item" would result in something less than a dq while a sucsessful protest for performance enhancement would result in a dq and perhaps something more??

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
AB

OK Andy, but I must say (and end it for now) the GCR Glossary definition only holds precedence if the Specification doesn't clarify the rule (as stated in 1.2.4), and when the ITCS says "gauges and instruments" (I know how many times I've said this) then the ITCS is clearly saying an "instrument" is more than a "gauge" (it is also a switch) as defined by Our Instumentation guru.
Anyway, thanks for your attention and I only ask that this rationale be seriously considered. Obviously I earnestly believe it holds water.

HAPPY VALENTINES DAY.
G.Robert

[Joe Harlan]

It ends at the dash board GRW....read the last sentence. It says ,the remainder of the dash "board" or panel shall remain intact They rule is clearly talking about guages and instruments built into the dashboard.



[This message has been edited by Joe Harlan (edited February 14, 2005).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
[b]It ends at the dash board GRW....read the last sentence. It says ,the remainder of the dash "board" or panel shall remain intact They rule is clearly talking about guages and instruments built into the dashboard.
B]

Good point, Joe, but I think this means just what it says, the remainder of the "board" or "panel," that is you are not allowed to cut away the plastic or vinyl that makes up the dashboard (really nothing to do with the controls and guages), but it's reasonably arguable.
GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 14, 2005).]

[lateapex911]

Matt...

You are probably seeing the backlash from earlier (epic) threads. many around here will never forget the wild "Bettle in ITC" fiasco...

The second element is probably the huge stretch of logic in using the "Guy writing the definition made a boo boo" defense, then later modifying the arguement.

That said, this encounter HAS been more respectful, and your point is noted.


Regarding comments vis a vis the relative performace gains and the appropriateness of various penalties.....search "A protest story" in the rules and regs section. In summary, a driver was protested for internal engine issues, torn down, and found to be running high compression domed pistons. When asked, he denied knowledge, (which is hard to swallow, of course), and he was never asked as to the timing history of the modification. (A question that I feel should be asked square one, before ANYTHING is opened and inspected).

The penatly? "Sorry, don't do that again, we have to DQ you from the race" A good thing the lap record he set on that engine a month earlier was broken that day, or the record, and the previous finishes would stand...as it is the previous finishes stood. Contrast that to another teardown where the book was thrown, points assessed, season points removed, etc, etc, for a stock exhaust manifold that had a weld repair on a SM.

When a system exists that is fairly organized and structured, and it fails so miserably, I would hate to see it replaced with a system that allows greater use of "judgement calls".

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Having seen this event happen live--...

Hehe. Well, someone posted something about this sort of thing on the Rennlist (Porsche) racing forum. I of course posted Bill's fine video AND his emergency steering kit.

But, I got trumped by someone who posted a video of a guy in a Spec Pinata at Laguna Seca that not only got the wheel back on, but he NEVER lifted!


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by grjones1:
I know I'm going to get smacked for beating a putrified horse, but....

Horse, no. Beetle, yes.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Does that mean I can put a Trombone in the grill??

You might have to be careful in the PNW...

You might find a amourous moose chasing you.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com