14"-15" wheel size rule

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
In the example, we started with ZERO to 5 years of jail time... In the IT example, we are starting with 13" or 14" wheels...

That's your assumption, and the fault in your logic (and the reason this got screwed up in the first place). Show me in the rules where it dictates a minimum wheel diameter. There is nothing in the rules that states there's a minimum wheel diameter. You assume there is, but there isn't.

Face it: you boys screwed the pooch on the wording of this one. The whole ITCS 17.1.9.D.7.a.1 paragraph, p ITCS 13 is a bastardized hacked-up rule that makes absolutely no sense. By its wording it's unclear and open to misinterpretation and confusion. At a minimum you should have written something like "may increase wheel diameter to a maximum of 15 inches" but instead used vague words like "up to". Hand the book to someone that's never seen the prior regs and ask them what they think it means, and I'll bet you'll get a confused look and multiple reads longs before you get an opinion. The responsibility of the rulesmakers is to clearly and plainly specify the rule and intent; the fact that there's even a debate on this rule is de facto proof that that job didn't get done. Surprise! Folks read vague rules differently.

Simply admit the mistake, strike the whole damn paragraph, and fix it ASAP, but - as Geo is fond of saying - don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

And stop complaining about people taking advantage of the shortcomings in the vague wording of the rules and installs Motec ECUs, 10-inch wheels, spherical bearings, tube frame chassis, and loads of other crap that was never intended but came about as a [b]DIRECT RESULT[b] of crappy wording in the regs!

And there's no need to be defensive, rude, insulting, and arrogant, Darin. This is an IT rule we're talking, not the end of civilized society as we know it today, and no one's making disparaging comments about your family history. You blew it, get over it.

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
...suggesting the following wording be added to this rule

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO! Stop trying to make this pig into a beauty queen with more makeup and a bigger hairdo. Strike the whole g-damned paragraph and start over again FROM SCRATCH. Open your mind, forget about what you know and what was there for the last twenty years, and WRITE THE RULE WITH THE PROPER INTENT.

All vehicles with 15" or larger wheel diameters shall retain the diameter as per the ITCS spec line. All vehicles with less than 15" wheel diameter may increase diameter to a maximium of 15 inches. Wheels must be made of metal. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited.

Those last two sentences SHOULD be on their own spec line, another bit of evidence of putting more makeup on the pig.

SAY WHAT YOU MEAN in a few sentences as possible.


[This message has been edited by GregAmy (edited January 31, 2005).]

[spnkzss]

7.a.1: paraphrased a little

Cars originally equipped..... blah blah blah....... The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit up to a fifteen (15) inch wheel. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. etc.


I don't quite understand the confusion here. 13s and 14s may fit up to A, and I emphasize "A", 15 inch wheel. All others shall retain the wheel diamter fitted as original. That means to me that anyone running a 15 should stay at 15 since it falls into the "all other cars".

Spanky

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
All vehicles with 15" or larger wheel diameters shall retain the diameter as per the ITCS spec line. All vehicles with less than 15" wheel diameter may increase diameter to a maximium of 15 inches. Wheels must be made of metal. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited.

WHY the hell would we go start talking about cars originally equiped with 15" wheels, when we are concerned with those that have 13/14" wheels??? There is no need to rewrite the whole damn thing... Besides, everytime we do something like that, we take a chance on either making a bigger mess, or making someones car illegal...

I like your word "increase", however, and would offer this:

"Cars specified with 13 or 14 inch wheels may increase their wheel diameter to a maximum of 15"..."

Is there anything fundamentally wrong with that??? (drum-roll please...)

By the way, this was out for membership input for a LONG freakin' time, with the wording as it's specified... where was all this "brilliant" insight then???



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Knestis]

I'm supposed to be working so don't have it in front of me but was the actual wording, as it appears in the final rule, put out for feedback?

K

[Greg Amy]

Edit: I'm rewriting my whole response to get it all in one place. Take it if you will, or don't. I don't care; my brakes are too large to reduce wheel diameter (dammit).

Darin sez "There is no need to rewrite the whole damn thing...'. Yes there is, Darin. It's bulky, it's awkward, it's tacked-on, and it's way out of date. It's a rule that's been hacked and plastered-upon for 20+ years and is way overdue for an overhaul. The result of this hacking (it reminds me of a trailer house that's been planted and had multiple additions over 20 years) is that it's just flat not clear what's legal and what the intent is. It breaks the cardinal rule of "Reasonable people can disagree."

Remember, the more words you use, the more words there are to twist around. Thus, the ones you do use should be used sparingly and precisely.

So, what is the intent of this new wheel rule? Is it:
- Allow anyone using metric wheels to move to a comparable standard wheel, and
- Allow someone with 12 inch wheels to move to 13, and
- Allow anyone using 12 inch, metric, 13, and 14 inch wheels to go a larger diameter but 15 inches max, and
- Require any car that uses 15- or 16-inch wheels to retain stock size?

Is this the intention of this rule? Is there anything I have omitted or added? If this is correct, then consider the following:

- First, a casual review of the ITCS shows that there are zero (ZERO!) cars listed with metric wheels. None, nada, zilch, zippo. Thus, all references to metric wheels in the rules is redundant and should be stricken in their entirety. If, in the future, you should choose to classify a car that uses metric wheels, these allowances can be added to the cars' spec lines as is other allowances.

Step one: strike all references in the ITCS 17.1.9.D.7.a.1 to metric wheels.

- Second, there are zero (ZERO!) cars listed in the specs with 12" wheels that are 12" only. Those with 12" wheels are listed as "12/13", thus allowing them to use 13" wheels anyway. All references to 12" wheels in the rules are redundant and should be stricken in their entirety. If, in the future, you should choose to classify cars that use 12" wheels only, the 13" allowance can be added to the cars' spec lines.

Step Two: strike all references in the ITCS 17.1.9.D.7.a.1 to 12" wheels.

Therefore, what we are left with is the desire to allow cars with 13" wheels to use 13", 14", or 15"; cars with 14" to use 14" or 15"; and cars with 15" and 16" wheels to use stock diameter. Do we really need a 40-pound sack of words to describe this 16-ounce desire?

Let's combine our ideals from above, make it precise, make it short, and make it effective. Strike paragraph in its entirety and make it:

All vehicles shall retain stock wheel diameter, except those listed with 13- or 14-inch wheels may increase their wheel diameter to a maximum of 15 inches. Wheels must be made of metal. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited.

Voila! I just don't see how we can get more accurate and to the point that that, guys. Three sentences, three restrictions, no waiting...

There's my contribution, and I'm done. I'm going back to the garage and continue stuffing that Cray supercomputer into my spherical bearings...

[This message has been edited by GregAmy (edited January 31, 2005).]

[Joe Harlan]

Yes: it doesn't allow cars with smaller-than-13 inch wheels to increase to a maximum of 15".

edit

[This message has been edited by Joe Harlan (edited February 01, 2005).]

[ITSRX7]

OK, end it. All you need to do is read the first 8 posts of this thread. We clarified the intent and promised a revision/clarification. We thought is was clear, it wasn't. No sweat.

Back to your regularly scheduled snow-shoveling.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Daryl DeArman]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
By the way, this was out for membership input for a LONG freakin' time, with the wording as it's specified... where was all this "brilliant" insight then???

Some of us might have liked the way it was written and planned to decrease our wheel diameter. Why would we ask for a clarification when we liked the way it was worded?

[Geo]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
- Second, there are zero (ZERO!) cars listed in the specs with 12" wheels that are 12" only. Those with 12" wheels are listed as "12/13", thus allowing them to use 13" wheels anyway. All references to 12" wheels in the rules are redundant and should be stricken in their entirety.

Why?

What if someone actually wants to use 12" wheels?

I personally think the rule is clear enough. But, in the interest of nipping silliness in the bud, I agree with Andy that we need to issue a clarification.

Good catch on the metric wheels Greg. I'd never even looked at that!

For some reason I thought there was a Pigout 505 in IT (that came with metrics) but in retrospect I'm sure I was just thinking back to when it was a very viable SS car.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

didn't old mustangs (ITB?) come with metrics?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITANorm]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
didn't old mustangs (ITB?) come with metrics?

To the best of my recollection, of the SCCA classed cars only the SVO turbo's did. They were an SSA car - over 15 years ago; and never an IT car.