14"-15" wheel size rule

[lobster]

I was wondering if the comp board passed the plus 1 plus 2 wheel size rule yet thanks Glenn

[Geo]

Originally posted by lobster:
I was wondering if the comp board passed the plus 1 plus 2 wheel size rule yet thanks Glenn

The rule allows everyone up to 15" wheels. It is not a +1, +2 rule.

And yes, it has passed.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[ITANorm]

I still contend that as worded it allows cars that had 13" or 14" stock to use any of the 3. "Up to" means equal to or less than. The only reason I really keep pushing this is that it's gonn'a happen, and using the GCR I'm not gonn'a be able to enforce the "intent" of the CRB or the ITAC.

<edit: fat fingers </edit>

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Norm - #55 ITA, '86 MR2. [email protected]

Website: home.alltel.net/jberry

[This message has been edited by ITANorm (edited January 10, 2005).]

[jlucas]

Which FasTrack has this new rule in it? Or has it not been published yet?
Basically trying to find the exact wording.

Thanks

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Jeremy Lucas
Team Honda Research
Kumho - Cobalt - Comptech

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ITANorm:
I still contend that as worded it allows cars that had 13" or 14" stock to use any of the 3. "Up to" means equal to or less than. The only reason I really keep pushing this is that it's gonn'a happen, and using the GCR I'm not gonn'a be able to enforce the "intent" of the CRB or the ITAC.

<edit: fat fingers </edit>

Well, we can tell you for certain, that it was not the intent. KNOWING THAT, If it does start to happen, there will be a clarification AND you will have wasted your money.

We will be looking into more specific wording that takes up a minimual amount of GCR text.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[joeg]

I already have a 2005 GCR...it's in there.

One thing I didn't care for in the new GCR is that they didn't BOLD and blackbar line changes. They just italicized new language.

Cheers.

[Jake]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
if it does start to happen, there will be a clarification

Andy, not everyone reads this message board, and it is very easy to read the rule that way (after all that is what it says). I would suggest correcting the wording very quickly. To be honest, if I wasn't on this board, I probably would have already bought a set of 13x7's.

[Andy Bettencourt]

While the wording has not been approved, expect someting additional like:

"Cars may not fit smaller diameter wheels than specified on their spec line."

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Matt Rowe]

Jake,

I must be missing something. Can you tell me what situation you think is going to happen and what the advantage/disadvantage would be? Are you referring to weight reduction by people downsizing their wheels or is it something else?

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Andy Bettencourt]

Cheap gear change...

[Geo]

The purpose for the rule change was to deal with the relative lack of availability in certain smaller wheel sizes.

The intent was to make it cheaper for folks to get appropriate wheels.

While I think performance-wise it's pretty much a wash, on the off chance someone were to find an advantage in a smaller, less easy to find wheel size it would totally defeat the purpose of the rule.

So, as Andy said, if you think you can get it by tech and/or protest, fine. Just expect smaller diameter wheels to be worthless to you later (or perhaps sooner than later).


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

Devils advocate role:

IF the CRB, the ITAC, et al wants to try to help IT remain an reasonable venture from a cost standpoint, which is the main intent of the rule, doesn't it follow that allowing smaller diameter wheels would do exactly that?

To quote Bettencourt, "Cheap gear change..."

That said, I would object to that line of thinking due to the possibility it could result in a gear change that, up to now, was impossible. (Assuming the ITAC, and/or the CRB knew of the unavailability of gears when they classed the car originally)

Am I right? Is there more?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Jake, the gearing is not what concerns me nor I think the ITAC as a whole. It's more the matter of the fact that some smaller wheel sizes are nearly unavailable and require either expensive racing wheels or expensive custom wheels.

The idea was to cut wheel costs.

Also, wheels don't change the rolling diameter, tires do. If rolling diameter is an issue one should look at tire selection.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Jake]

I honestly think that wheel diameter should be open because I don't think there is any competitive advantage to allowing smaller diameter wheels (at the same width)

However, the way the rule is written, it only allows people with 14" wheels to go down in diameter, which would be unfair because it doesn't give others that option.

[Greg Amy]

Another unintended consequence: cars with larger wheels can run deeper spoilers (e.g., a full 1 inch lower spoiler when going from 13" to 15" diameter wheels...)

Guys, there's always unintended consequences. You'll drive yourself batty trying to avoid them...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Jake:
I honestly think that wheel diameter should be open because I don't think there is any competitive advantage to allowing smaller diameter wheels (at the same width)

However, the way the rule is written, it only allows people with 14" wheels to go down in diameter, which would be unfair because it doesn't give others that option.

Then I have a few comments...

1. Why would you "already have 13 x 7's" if you think there is no performance advantage?

2. Don't worry about the perecived inequity of the rule. It will be clarified to specifically dis-allow going down in size.

And to Gulick's question...like George said, the idea was to cut costs by increasing available choices. Not require people to have 30 different permutations of wheels, tires, etc for every track.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
Another unintended consequence: cars with larger wheels can run deeper spoilers (e.g., a full 1 inch lower spoiler when going from 13" to 15" diameter wheels...)

Guys, there's always unintended consequences. You'll drive yourself batty trying to avoid them...

Greg,

Maybe it's too early, but I don't see how this is going to be any kind of an advantage. If you want to run a 1" deep spoiler, won't you also have to run 1" higher ride height?

2. Don't worry about the perecived inequity of the rule. It will be clarified to specifically dis-allow going down in size.

Andy, why is this such an issue? Why not let everyone run whatever wheel size they want, up to 15", or the stated wheel size on the spec line, if it's greater than 15"? Some cars won't be able to go to a smaller wheel, as it won't clear the brakes. Seems like something minor to be spending a lot of energy on.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Greg,

Maybe it's too early, but I don't see how this is going to be any kind of an advantage. If you want to run a 1" deep spoiler, won't you also have to run 1" higher ride height?

2. Don't worry about the perecived inequity of the rule. It will be clarified to specifically dis-allow going down in size.

Andy, why is this such an issue? Why not let everyone run whatever wheel size they want, up to 15\", or the stated wheel size on the spec line, if it's greater than 15\"? Some cars won't be able to go to a smaller wheel, as it won't clear the brakes. Seems like something minor to be spending a lot of energy on.

/edit/comment for George (and Andy, I guess)

You guys say you opened up the wheel rule to deal w/ expensive, hard to find wheels. Yet Andy says that allowing someone w/ 15's to use those same wheels is a "cheap gear change". If that's the case, and the wheels are 'cheap'[sic], why was the rule changed?

I also don't think it's all that 'cheap', even if the wheels aren't that expensive, and are available. Figure you need at least 6, if not 8 wheels, plus tires. You're looking at ~$800 - $1200 worth of tires, and another $400 (IF you can find some cheap wheels, see above comment about cost and availability) to God knows what ($1500? $2000) on the other end. And, that's only going to give you one different ratio. You can probably get another tranny w/ a different R&P for about the same money (maybe less).

R&P ratios are free, why worry about the tire/wheel issue? It's kind of like the old shock rule, you could get to coil overs, you just had to spend more money (if you wanted fancy shocks).


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Bill, I don't think effective gearing change is the real issue. The issue is that allowing people to go down in size defeats the purpose of the rule. Period. Wheels don't dictate rolling diameter anyway. Tires do. You can already use different tire sizes.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[joeg]

I have no clue what the fuss is all about.

I would hope the rule was changed because of not only perceived wheel shortages, but also the tire manufacturers not venturing into 13 and 14 inch size expansion in DOT race rubber.

For example, is that new F1 style Kumho available in a 13 or 14 yet? will it ever be?

As for going "down size", I haven't ever seen a 12" or 10" DOT race tire on the Hoosier truck (or any other suppliers catalog).

Have you?

The bottom line is that the marketplace will resolve this, so why not let anyone run sizes whatever up or down they want in the "real" 13 to 15 range. They soon will probably not have much of a choice.