Main Hoop Braces/Bulkhead interpretations

[Speed Raycer]

I'm getting ready to do a cage in an ITB Pinto and have run into a slight problem on the rear hoop braces. The factory package/speaker tray is in the way of the desired line of the rear hoop braces.

Regarding the rear braces, ITCS 10.4 (p19) states "Such rear braces may pass through any mandatory or optional bulkhead or panel separating the driver/passenger compartment from the trunk/cargo area/fuel tank/fuel cell area, provided the bulkhead is sealed around said cage braces."

I read the "or panel" to mean that I can cut the package tray to run the braces through as long as they're sealed back up.

What is the IT.com gallary's take on this while I wait for a reply from Topeka?

In the meantime, I've planned on running through the speaker hole which is about 1.5"-2" off of the desired line, but still workable.

I'll have pics tomorrow if anyone can't picture what I'm talking about.

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Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

Izzy's Custom Cages

[Knestis]

This installation shows a notch in a panel that might be analogous to your Pinto situation, right?

It also should make for interesting discussion re: the maximum plate size and number of cage tie-in points rules.

K

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">It also should make for interesting discussion re: the maximum plate size and number of cage tie-in points rules. </font>

Interesting indeed! Sure looks like it could be thinner than 2" in a spot, and it's probably real close to the 12" limit when you lay that vertical piece flat.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[lateapex911]

I think you'll be fine cutting a hole where you need to, and when you're done, attaching a metal panel over the speaker holes, and around the rear brace if the hole you cut needed to be larger than the tube for installation.

Re: the red car, that DID look impressive at first, but I bet it's OK.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[bsholden]

Scott-
For further information regarding the non-clarification of this "bulkhead" rule (BR) see:

http://www.scca.org/garage/forum/forum_pos...sp?TID=633&PN=1

I am aware of solutions within the SM crowd involving the use of metal tape and caulking to achieve a semblance of legality.
I have asked Topeka for clarification of acceptable materials to meet the BR, so far with no response.
Like the SM exhaust rule, the latest BR rule is sweeping in its generality while lacking in specifics...possibly leading to several configurations incapable of meeting the requirements of every region on a day to day basis.
Kinda like an experience with my SM exhaust at Blackhawk last year.

Bart Holden
#9 SM

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
It also should make for interesting discussion re: the maximum plate size and number of cage tie-in points rules.

Wow. Clever bunny!

I do agree with Bill that the horizontal and vertical pieces might have an issue if laid down on a flat surface with exceeding 12", but if not, I say BRAVO!


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[racer_tim]

But, it can only attach to the chassis in 8 places. My math makes that 12 points. 2 for the forward braces to the firewall, 2 for the front hoop, 2 for the main hoop, and 3 on each side of the rear braces = 12 points.

Or am I missing something?



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
But, it can only attach to the chassis in 8 places. My math makes that 12 points. 2 for the forward braces to the firewall, 2 for the front hoop, 2 for the main hoop, and 3 on each side of the rear braces = 12 points.

Or am I missing something?

Tim,

The GCR/ITCS considers the plate to be the attachment point. Says right in there that you can have any number of tubes running to a single plate, and it's still considered 1 attachment point. The question, in the case, is does the plate meet the rules?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[jlucas]

GCR:
"B. Each mounting plate shall not be greater than 100 square inches and shall be no greater than twelve (12) inches or less than two (2) inches on a side.

D. The mounting plate may be multi-angled but must not exceed these dimensions in a flat plane.
E. Any number of tubes may attach to the plate or each other."

Basically the plate is the mounting point. Any number of tubes can attach to the plate but the plate can't exceed the dimensions listed.

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Jeremy Lucas
Team Honda Research
Kumho - Cobalt - Comptech

[lateapex911]

You know............on second thought...if the tubes are 1.5", I would be surprised if the horizontal and vertical "L" is LESS than 12". IT's close, that's for sure. Would love to see a ruler in the pic for scale. Of course, if it's intended for IT, then it MUST be ok, right?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
You know............on second thought...if the tubes are 1.5", I would be surprised if the horizontal and vertical "L" is LESS than 12". IT's close, that's for sure. Would love to see a ruler in the pic for scale. Of course, if it's intended for IT, then it MUST be ok, right?

Jake,

That's what I figured, probably 1.5" tubing, which means the short dimension is real close to 2", but I doubt if you flattened the whole thing out that it would be less than 12" in the long dimension.

Ok Kirk, time to spill the beans. What car is that picture from?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Marcus Miller]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Jake,
<snip>
Ok Kirk, time to spill the beans. What car is that picture from?

I'm not Kirk,
But the car is from here:
http://www.tcdesignfab.com/E36%20BMW%20CCA...pared%20Car.htm

The main page here: http://tcdesignfab.com
Tony built quite a few of the Spec Miata cages here in SFR...
Marcus

[This message has been edited by Marcus Miller (edited January 02, 2005).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

I wouldn't put to much effort into deciding if it was SCCA legal or not. The passenger door is gutted to accept a modified NASCAR-style cage...I wouldn't need to look any further than that.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

I looked at the pics on the website, and saw the disclaimer about 'pushing the rules' w/ the cage design, and that it may not be legal for a given sanctioning body. I also saw that they stated that the car is designed BMWCCA prepared, NABRA A-class, and SCCA ITS. They also talk about reinforcing the subframe and suspension pickup points. I sure hope Mr. Dadgar doesn't plan on running that car in ITS. If so, he's probably going to be in for a big surprise at his first event. Too bad too, I'm sure he paid a lot of money for that cage.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Although some may argue this, I don't see anything in the rules allowing the removal of the radio harness. Did any E36 come to the states w/o a radio (and the attendant harness).


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[MMiskoe]

If we're on the thread of picking on the cage design of the red car, why go to all the trouble in the back and then have no forward-firewall mounted supports for the A-pillar bars? More concerned w/ the rear suspension stiffening than broken feet?

Just another peanut gallery comment.

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I wouldn't put to much effort into deciding if it was SCCA legal or not. The passenger door is gutted to accept a modified NASCAR-style cage...I wouldn't need to look any further than that.

AB

Andy-

I didn't look at every pic, but if you're referring to the last two, I believe he's showing the pass side door as the "before" pic and the drivers side as "after". Again, I'm not sure if there's another pics showing a gutted pass side door, and I'm pretty sure it's not going to help the legality of the car anyway...




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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[Bill Miller]

Matt,

I think if you look at this picture, you'll see what Andy is talking about.



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Speed Raycer]

WOW! I go out and make some cage pads for the weekend and come back to this!!

Yes Kirk, that pic's close to what I'm talking about, if you moved the tube over to about where the 1/2" hole is.

To me, the tubes in the TC Design cage look to be 1.75"... With the number of tubes in that cage, I doubt that the builder would use the heavier 1.5"x.120 wall over the stronger 1.75" tubing.

This has become a very interesting thread

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Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

Izzy's Custom Cages

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Matt,

I think if you look at this picture, you'll see what Andy is talking about.

DOH!

I thought I looked at all of the ones that would show it, but I missed one or two, or a few maybe...

I was just looking mostly at the last few, that showed two different views. I thought at first that those were what Andy was talking about, but I saw the fact that the one was the other door.

I'll just shut up now and go back to being sick.



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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."