ECU rule thoughts

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
The point is that all tuning should be done to the stock ECU....( much like tuning a stock carb)because it is not easy to police. As far as an ecu that has not been cracked I would suggest that's part of the development of any car that is an IT candidate. I would also suggest that people need to look outside the normal sources for cracked ECU's. If there is a desire to get it done it can be done for any car out there.

Yes!!!

If you add up the $$ it took to put Motecs in a few BMWs (parts and labor costs) along with the development time for the maps, I'm sure someone could've paid someone to getthe stock one to work reasonably well. In fact, they probably could've turned around and made money by selling it to the street guys who didn't want to go the Motec route.

Now, would a Motec ultimately be better for racing? I believe so, but I also believe that the limitations of the stock unit fall within the scope of IT as a class. IT should be about taking the MAJOR stock components (engine, control system, trans, suspension) and making it into a reliable race car by *modifying* them in minor ways. You can hack the stock ECU, the same way that you can balance and blueprint. You can't use aftermarket controllers, the same way that you can't use a different (non stock) crankshaft.

Joe, I agree with you in principle on things (from what I've seen on here). I just equate the wiring issue to more like fasteners (electrical fasteners essentially) while the ECU itself is a major component that should be stock at its core.

And, woo hoo, 200 posts.

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[Knestis]

200?

EDIT - dang. Missed it.



K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited December 28, 2004).]

[Tom Donnelly]

Matt,
What is available out there to dump the ECU contents to a binary file? And are there any references to what language? The executable portion of the data has to relate to some form of machine code, such as assembler. The bulk of the dump would be the data that forms the multi-dimensional array for the decision processing. Any hacking software / hardware out there for an interface to an ordinary PC?

Tom

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:

What is available out there to dump the ECU contents to a binary file? And are there any references to what language? The executable portion of the data has to relate to some form of machine code, such as assembler. The bulk of the dump would be the data that forms the multi-dimensional array for the decision processing. Any hacking software / hardware out there for an interface to an ordinary PC?

Tom

The EPROM itself only contains the data from which the executables pull the required info for the circumstances. Most that I know of are written in simple 2-bit hex. Pulling the code is as "simple" as desoldering the chip, dropping it into a reader, and querying it for data. Of course, what you get out looks like gibberish unless you know root addresses for things.

The problem is not the code itself (language-wise), but the indexing that the programmers used. Just because the spark tables are located at address X in one program, doesn't mean they'll be anywhere near that in another. The real problem is that very little of this is documented for older cars, like the ones we deal with.

All you have to do is know which data points to change and by how much, and you can edit the raw hex code itself. You can write in executables (not the easiest thing to deal with).

If you use an interface program, altering the values is easy. You simply have to write a definition file for the code you're working with, that tells the interface where to find the data from, and how to translate the hex values to absolute numbers.

For more info, search around for GM EPROM stuff. That's one of the most well known and supported ECU groups, and there's volumes of info out there (it's where I learned how to do it).

For my stuff, I use:
An EPROMer 5 for reading and burning
http://www.ustr.net

TunerCat as an interface (they also have a program that gives you the ability to write definition files for almost ANY ECU).
http://www.tunercat.com

I also use WinHEX or NitroHEX for raw code editing and comparison.

As far as the machine code itself, most of this stuff is based off the Motorola 68HC11, so any assembler that can translate for that processor could work. I prefer to write machine code (raw hex) myself as to avoid translation errors.

Most of the issue here is finding the correct addresses, as none I've seen have any notations, even in the assembly language. What someone originally did for a lot of the GM stuff was to make a "dummy" car, complete with all inputs and outputs. Then they changed the code, and saw how the outputs reacted with various inputs, and deduced the data locations from there. As I'm sure you know, it's not that hard to located a 2D or 3D table in the code, but knowing what exact data that table is can be another story. You might think you're changing a VE table, and instead you're playing with the cold start enrichment data. Both would effect the fuel and could look similar if not monitored VERY carefully.

Then there's also the feedback functions. If you don't translate the data in the output stream correctly, you can chase your tail forever. Sure, you can use a scan tool, but you're limited in many factors, such as datalogging and the ability to discern trends.

All of this is the MAJOR reason to use a Motec. They give you software that says, here's where you change this to do this, and it does it all in real world numbers. Plus, it has the ability to talk directly to a laptop since it translates itself. No fuss, no muss.

Starting to sound like it's worth the $$, huh?

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[chipbond]

I went to www.car-part.com and looked for Zetec ecus per 98 Ford Countor. Looks like for that single application there were over 40 different iterations. Some were deliniated as manual vs. automatic, but other than that, the differences would need to be determined one by one. I think I'd rather spend the 2K (non Motec alternative)!

Matt, how much do the reader/burner and the rest of the hardware you mentioned cost?

(Not trying to paint you in a corner, just interested...)

Chip Bond
EP Caterham

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by chipbond:
Matt, how much do the reader/burner and the rest of the hardware you mentioned cost?

(Not trying to paint you in a corner, just interested...)

No problem at all. I actually originally got into this forum because I wanted to share my knowledge (rather than the opinions I've been spewing in other threads... )

I got my EPROMer for like $105 (the good one with AC adapter and ZIF socket).

I use EEPROMs at a couple bucks apiece rather than having to buy a UV eraser.

TunerCat software is like $75 plus definition files, plus like another $50 for other programs (I use the disassembler and the TDF editor).

Figure about $200 for a good laptop setup (I have one for sale if anyone is interested).

If you're going to build your own "modem" to connect via the diagnostic connector, figure another $50.

Then figure a scan tool or software for the laptop to communicate with live data for feedback purposes. You can't really tune via a WB O2 for this, because you're trying to work on closed loop maps, which are altered by long term trim numbers. You need to see what the computer is doing to compensate and tune from there.

Figure, if you buy everything and your car is already supported, you're gonna drop $500 or so for EVERYTHING. From there, it's read up and spend some time tuning (which is all baselined off of the stock program). If your car isn't supported by something, figure maybe $100 less, but a TON more time.

The TunerCat stuff is a good starting point, but it is GM based. If you want something else, there are Ford EEC systems, stuff for the DSM guys, and people from the Dodge turbo crowd working on these projects. You're just going to have to do tons of R&D work. And also, if you're 96 and newer, I'm not even sure how to deal with the OBD2 stuff...

How much is your time worth?

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[chipbond]

Thanks for the explanations/insights. Some years back, I guess I would have had the time and inclination to just dive in and take on a new hobby...Whew. I did, in fact, start to try and develop a drafting program in one of the BASIC languages in the late 70's on a then, state of the art, TRS-80. But then I bought into Autocad at version 1.2 or so when you could get the 8087 chip in an IBM PC. I'd still sit and watch individual pixels turn on and off as the program regenerated the drawing, but, I think, I made the correct decision.

I salute you for your knowledge, your ability to articulate it and the freedom with which you share. But, given that ours is the OBD2 EEC-V Ford stuff, the house needs paint and the avalability of other, less daunting alternatives, I'll just hope some amiable resolution to these questions regarding IT ECUs and their application in club racing is possible.

I'm going way out here and commending the IT community for a really great proactive approach. As demonstrated by this board. It seems your ad hoc guys are willing to ask the questions and give very reasonable consideration to the wide range of opinion and thought posted here. Contrast this to the prod site. It's a different universe.

Cheers

Chip Bond
EP Caterham

[Tom Donnelly]

Matt,

Thanks, that's exactly what I was asking for. You're right, sounds like the motec is worth it. If one has the money.

Tom

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by chipbond:
T

I'm going way out here and commending the IT community for a really great proactive approach. As demonstrated by this board. It seems your ad hoc guys are willing to ask the questions and give very reasonable consideration to the wide range of opinion and thought posted here. Contrast this to the prod site. It's a different universe.

Cheers

Chip Bond
EP Caterham

Indeed...it's one of my issues when it's suggested that I move to prod.


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]