ECU rule thoughts

[C. Ludwig]

With the ECU rule as it stands the sky is pretty much the limit as far as pulling the stock guts out of the factory ECU and replacing them with the engine management system of your choice. Agreed? At this point then a large variable and cost factor has been introduced in to IT. Not only can we drop $3000+ on a Motec system but for those without the skills to break that system down and install it in the factory case there would be a considerable expense to pay an electronics expert to do so. And in opening the aftermarket system's case and manipulating it you're certainly going to void any kind of warranty it may have come with and certainly complicate matters should the need ever arise to send the system back to the manufacturer for service. Agreed?

If we're in agreement to this point is it a logical step to make the full leap and ask the ITAC to conisder changing the ruling yet again to simply allow aftermarket engine management systems outright without the need and extra expense and simple hassle of cramming them in to the stock case?

Thoughts?

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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

[Joe Harlan]

Or close the door and only allow modifications to the factory board and or daughter board. I have used all the trick ecu's for GT cars ect. When the cars that are currently classed were classed nobody really ever though that engine management would be free... So doing what has been done or opening it up even further will only make those matters worse.

[Bill Miller]

Can someone explain to me how allowing the addition of a daughter board would be any different than allowing 'free internals'? I imagine that you could pack that whole MoTec system on the daughter board.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

Didn't we just have this conversation? Greg A. even put out straw-man language for possible rule changes.

While it might be safe to say that "we" (IT.com posters, not IT competitors nationwide) were "in agreemment" that the rule needs to be examined, we were a LONG way from consensus about what a change should look like.

Any of us could put a proposition forward to the CRB if we chose to do so, but I think maybe we get a little complacent about the official process since we have access to ITAC folks through this very unofficial board.

K

[planet6racing]

Kirk, it's been 2 months since that topic was started, so it was time to start it again.

And, no one has yet to show me that the current rule upset the balance (or even changed the finishing order) in IT.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[924Guy]

Hmmm, I'm still struggling to see how I _wouldn't_ fall behind with open-season on engine management, having no ECU to chip or replace, and no carbs to re-jet.

Ah, screw it, why not just open up engine management systems entirely so I can drop in a Motec too? After all, what's the difference, really, between a K-Jet injector and an L-Jet injector? They both perform the same purpose, right? And wiring's free, so I can add more at my leisure, right? </sarcasm>

I'm really surprised the VW guys aren't b*tching up a storm about this - unless they know more about tuning CIS than I do (quite possible)...

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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[JeffYoung]

I'd like to put Spock's brain in my ECU. It fits in the case. Is this legal?

[shwah]

Originally posted by 924Guy:

I'm really surprised the VW guys aren't b*tching up a storm about this - unless they know more about tuning CIS than I do (quite possible)...

From my standpoint, I view CIS-E as everything I need because it is simple and reliable, letting me focus my energies elsewhere. It is not hard to dial the air fuel ratio in to what is needed within the 'old' rules, and ignition timing is easy to set static at the optimum point.

However I do personally view the current ecu rule as way outside what I consider appropriate for the class. It just seems odd to me that IT cars can run fully programable engine management systems while the supposedly higher prep level Production cars are running carbs or 'factory type' fuel injection. IMO the rule is a cop out because it was deemed difficult to police ecu modifications when they were not legal.

How many other rules can we open up because the are not easy to police?

Of course just my opinions. I am happy to race under the current rules because racing makes me happy.

Chris
86 VW ITB

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by shwah:
...while the supposedly higher prep level Production cars are running carbs or 'factory type' fuel injection.

Better go check the PCS... The only thing "production" about a Production cars FI system is the intake manifold... The ECUs, etc., are pretty much open, which is why you see guys building "Megasquirt" systems, etc., for their Prod cars...

If "policing" ECUs is so easy, perhaps you can give us some suggestions on how you'd do it? Everyone keeps saying how easy it should be, but no one seems to be able to lay out any guidelines on how to pull it off... I'm an Embedded Software Engineer, and I can't think of a practical way to do it... (quite the opposite, actually... I can think of all KINDS of ways to hack it!! )

Anyone???

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited November 18, 2004).]

[apr67]

I can think of a million ways to hack a jensen healy or a Alfa Spyder cam.

Does that mean cams should be open?

[Knestis]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
Kirk, it's been 2 months since that topic was started, so it was time to start it again. ...

Alrighty then, but it seems like 168 posts on a strand that petered out less than 2 weeks ago would have resolved something, if resolution were possible in this forum.

K

[Joe Harlan]

Sure Bill, If it were specified that the only function of the daugter board was to hold the ROM chips.....this would still make full use of the OEM main board and allow chips to be flash programed and popped into a socket...Not a big deal and really limits the amount of mods being done to the ECU... IMHO stand alone ecu's and the continued allowance of Motecing a stock box will further drive down the level of interest in IT due to the cost's associated with having a winning effort.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by apr67:
I can think of a million ways to hack a jensen healy or a Alfa Spyder cam.

Does that mean cams should be open?

VERY silly example, and completely irrelevant... A cam can be physically measured, so you could hack away and someone could physically check it...

How do you check something you can't see, or that can be dynamically changed? Guys with Hondas are taking stock ECUs and adding code to them that allows them to turn the key on and off 5 times, or somthing like that, and it changes the ECU program back to stock. And, the change is not detectable by any normally available means...

Again, you've provided no answer, just another question, which quite frankly isn't even of the same nature as what we are discussing here...

Very specifically, HOW do you police something like this, assuming you don't have the resources of the CIA or NSA at your disposal??



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Joe Harlan]

You police it by limiting the allowed mods to something reasonable instead of allowing something that is extreme to the other end.

[planet6racing]

The only way I can think of to police:

1) Competitor pre-registers (no on-site registration) and pays an extra $300 fee for a new computer.

2) Region purchases computer from car manufacturer and maintains control of it under lock and key.

3) On grid, the 15 minute warning is given and all electronic devices are required to be removed from the area (laptops, palm pilots, cell phone, pagers, etc).

4) After everything is gone, the region hand out new computers and take the old one. The scrutineer/grid worker verifies that the new, completely stock, computer is installed and that there is nothing in the area that can flash it.

5) The race starts and ends.

6) All cars are sent to impound. The computers are pulled and the old ones returned.

7) 3 weeks later, the $300 fee, less a $100 pain-in-the-butt fee is returned to the competitor.

Easy, eh?

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
You police it by limiting the allowed mods to something reasonable instead of allowing something that is extreme to the other end.

Again... what the heck does that mean??

You allow a daughter board??? I can fit a Motec onto a daughter board...

You allow chips to be changed? I can fit a Motec into a single chip on the mainboard...

You require stock Mainboard processing??? How do you check all those Ones and Zeros to validate they are the stock code? HOW do you know what the stock code is??

What is a "reasonable set of mods"??? The MINUTE you say something can be modified/changed/reprogrammed, etc., you open the door for a whole slew of possibilities. Addtionally, because of the differences in ECUs from model to model, how do you come up with something that would work for the majority???

It seems we have a middle ground right now, so what exactly... EXACTLY are you going to change in the wording to satisfy the majority and stay within "the intent of IT"???

Take out "replace"??? Then we'd have exactly what Touring has... which may be fine...

However...

As an additional note, the CRB contacted me and asked specifically that we be careful in how we suggest rewording any rules to avoid making existing cars illegal. So, similiarly to the idea of reclassifying the RX-7 to ITB and considering making all their 7" wheels suddenly illegal, we have to keep this in mind here, regardless of what might have happened with remote resevoir shocks or Production sequestial shift transmissions...

The more this comes up, the more I'm almost favoring just allowing any ECU, provided that the wiring harness and connector not be modified in any way and no additional inputs be added... Build a small adapter harness to make the plugs mate up and move on... Would certainly remove any abiguity...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited November 18, 2004).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
I'd like to put Spock's brain in my ECU. It fits in the case. Is this legal?

It wouldn't run. Going racing isn't logical.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
The only way I can think of to police:

1) Competitor pre-registers (no on-site registration) and pays an extra $300 fee for a new computer.

2) Region purchases computer from car manufacturer and maintains control of it under lock and key.

3) On grid, the 15 minute warning is given and all electronic devices are required to be removed from the area (laptops, palm pilots, cell phone, pagers, etc).

4) After everything is gone, the region hand out new computers and take the old one. The scrutineer/grid worker verifies that the new, completely stock, computer is installed and that there is nothing in the area that can flash it.

5) The race starts and ends.

6) All cars are sent to impound. The computers are pulled and the old ones returned.

7) 3 weeks later, the $300 fee, less a $100 pain-in-the-butt fee is returned to the competitor.

Easy, eh?

And if the club's ECU fails can I sue the club for my expenses for the weekend that went down the toilet?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Is it too early for me to have a drink???

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Riddle me this...

What can a Motec do that a remapped OEM ECU cannot?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com