Who do you go to?

[RSTPerformance]

Since you all started the topic on cheating and some had mentioned that some people might be in the grey area or that they might not know the rules clear enough.... what do youd o if you do have a question on legality?

This thread is a great place to start but what do you do when you get to the track and want a clarification on how those inspectors interpret the rules? I had specific questions when I went to the ARRC so the night BEFORE the event I went down to get my gear teched. I also brought my car to ask some questions.... this automatically made them think I was a cheater eventhough I was just double checking things before I even went on track. I was not given any answer on legality and I was told that coming to the tech inspectors the night before an event was not the right time to come. I asked when is the correct time to come and never got an answer. They told me when I get teched if I finish in the top 3 I will find out. Not the answer I was looking for! I know my car passed in my region but every region is different... I wanted to know what those inspectors felt the rules interpretation was BEFORE I raced. so I ask all of you....

DO any of you know when the correct time to go and ask the question is?

Stephen

PS I never made it to the Top 3 so I still have no idea. I will go back next year and again bring my car to tech ahead of time to have it looked over. since I am investing a huge amount of money to race I would hope they could give me some answers on how they interpret the rules.

[Geo]

The definitive answer is spelled out in the GCR (not the ITCS). I'm sorry, but I'm out of town for a different kind of endurance race (marathon) and don't have a GCR with me.

But, if you look through the GCR you will find there is a procedure to determine legality before going to the track. The hitch is that it will cost $250 IIRC. Perhaps someone can help out with the exact rule.

Short of that procedure, I don't think it's possible to get a definitive answer. You see, tech inspectors are not even the final answer. The COA is. That said, I agree it would be nice to at be able to go to the tech stews at an event and know before you go out on track if you're legal or not. You would think they'd be willing to do this, but that would require them all to get together and come up with a ruling, much like a protest. I suppose you could protest yourself before the event. Not sure if that would work either.

Perhaps some tech folks will chime in and giv you a better answer.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

George,

I beleive the $250 fee is for a clarification on a rule, or a decision as to the legality of a specific part/mod. IIRC, it's $250 per item.

Stephen,

While I'm disapointed to hear that kind of response from the tech people, I have to say, I'm not totally surprised. Comments like this, and things like "A protest story" are a huge indication that the system is very broken. The fact that there is such an inconsistent interpretation of the rules, from region to region, and even between different stewards in the same region, is something that really needs to be addressed.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

That's pretty much the sum of it, Stephen - the only official way to know is to have something protested, found illegal, then upped to the Court of Appeals.

People invoke the "letter from Topeka" idea but even an "official interpretation" from the Club Racing technical guys won't do it.

There was a time not very long ago - months, actually - that I still believed we could fix that system but I frankly don't believe that it's possible, now that I'm back in the fray and not looking at it with some benefit of distance.

K

[seckerich]

The time to ask these questions Stephen is during anual tech. I suggest that this year you contact your regions chief and ask them to inspect your car. We schedule "tech days" in January in my area and do this in a setting away from the track. A local racer with a shop allows us to all bring our cars to one location and we do annuals there (helps to buy dinner). No stress of a race weekend, and we have time to answer questions like yours with more research and get the correct answer. There is no possible way for every inspector to have the exact same opinion on an issue that has never been addressed before, but it gives us time to work with National to get the right answer. It is our job as tech stewards to get your answer. I'm sorry you got such a lame and unprofessional answer in Atlanta.

[RSTPerformance]

Thanks for all your answers so quickly. I went to the ARRC and new I was going to be pretty fast... Ended up off pole to my Brother. so I wnated to get clarification since I was spending $5,000 to go down to the one event I wanted all my t's crossed and I's dotted and as you all know I stink at spelling! Next year I am only going to race in 3 or 4 races all most likely out of region so my anuual tech in my region won't help to much because everyone has there own interpretations. I will however try to make it to one becasue they are a good idea. I guess I will have to wait until I get protested to find out for sure. This system does suck, especially when you do have interpretations, grey areas, and people that don't fully understand the rules! (like newbies and even me on some things)

Stephen.

[pfcs]

Stephen- don't be a wuss. For only $100 US I'll give you a determination. And for smaller issues, I do professional pondering for $50 per. phil

[lateapex911]

C'mon Phil! Go easy on the kid! Even his own brother only calls him "A big sissy" (11/06/04, Atlanta, GA)! A wuss? Hmmmm kinda strong!

Stephen, going to the techs is a recipe for disaster. Look at Kips issues with his weight in 02 at the ARRCs....

I would:

Call Jeremy. See what he thinks, and how strongly hefeels about it.

If he is black and white, and you agree, then live with that.

IF he's not strongly positive, then get Raymond to protest you. "Run it up the flagpole" so to speak. Once the protest runs the course, appeal the result, and let the Court of Appeals decide the case.

Only then will you have a bullet-proof resolution that will stand up at any future protest.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[bldn10]

I can't find it in the GCR (the headings aren't always very indicative of what's in rule) but there is such a procedure because it was used at least once at The Runoffs this year. Indeed, it may be a supplementary Runoffs rule since that event is so important. An SSC entrant got a "declaratory judgment" on the legality in that class of after market stainless brake lines. To the surprise many, they were said to be legal w/i certain stock replacement parameters. I think he did have to pay a hefty fee and I heard that the ruling might not even be binding on the SOM or COA. An annual tech stamp is certainly not binding on them; however, it might protect you from severe penalties if subsequently found illegal.

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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[RSTPerformance]

Stephen... I'll protest you He he...

Actually I wont, I think that you/we have not broken the rules theirfor we need not worry and or wast our $$$.

Unfortunatly "that" way of "fixing" things totally sucks... Everyone should be able to get an official ruling from someone in SCCA on questions... The GCR has creators, and those creators should be able to make proactive determinations for those that ask questions. Not only will this help make our rules more clear, but they will help newbies when they get "different interpretations" of the rules. I can see however people asking questions (overloading) everytime they think about protesting someone else... maybe the inquaries should be restricted to only asking about your own personal car... although very hard to regulate we (SCCA) somehow should be able to officialy answer questions without going through loops.

As far as the ARRC tech inspectors, I would like to add a little to that story.... we asked, they looked, and when I mean they more than one person. thus their were different interpretations to the rule. They even said we need to discuss this and you will have to see us in the morning for a determination. My impression was in the morning when we got the answer "it is up to interpretation" was that they could not agree to an answer.

I want to emphasize that although we did not get an answer they were very nice, they did take time to listen to us, and IMO would not have thrown the cars out for the part in question and wouldn't have even looked unless required to by a compeditors protest.

Raymond "wonder how many people are wondering what this darn part is now, thanks rumor starting wussy Stephen " Blethen

[RSTPerformance]

It is still very annoying that noone knows anything in SCCA and politics run the entire club.

Stephen

[RSTPerformance]

It's also very discouraging from the standpoint of a newbie or someone that is just getting started.

Stephen

[Ron Earp]

Stephen, as another newbie here, what exactly is it that you're worried won't pass tech? Or is it something that can't be aired in the open?

Ron

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[dickita15]

stephen.
re read jakes suggestion to call jeremy in topeka. getting a opinion from tech is like getting an opinion at this sight, it can give you point of views that can help you form an opinion but not a definative answer.

by the way as to you comment about politics it is more a problem of democracy. if this club had a dictator then you could get an easy answer but in SCCA's system no one person is invested with that much power. instead we have a process do make determainations. yes it is messy.

one of dick's rules of SCCA is that the club is the second largest burocracy in the world.

if you think this is frustrating try calling the IRS for a rule determaination
dick

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Even his own brother only calls him "A big sissy" (11/06/04, Atlanta, GA)!

Yup! Got a witness!

G

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by rlearp:
Stephen, as another newbie here, what exactly is it that you're worried won't pass tech? Or is it something that can't be aired in the open?

Ron

Sorry for the delayed response. I work retail...Toys R Us at that! The 17 hr days are getting to me!

I will mention anything to anyone and let anyone look at anything at anytime! So ask away about anything and I will tell you everything! I was really hoping to get torn down at atlanta! We figured if we brought both cars we would have a better chance but... to succeed you must first finish!

Anyway I had a simple question about Air intake. More specifically what was considered to be ram air VS. what is allowed. I have 2 air intake tubes attached to my STOCK air box. One is mounted about 2 inches back from the front grill. The other is mounted to a STOCK plastic piece that sticks through the fender behind the bumper (This is where the original air intake is from in it's STOCK form). That's it pretty simple. I was frustrated because I wanted to know if the tech inspectors at the event that weekend interpreted this to be legal since they do a teardown on the cars if you finish in the top three. I was asked about it at a previous event and made modifications to it to try and make sure it wasn't grey and pure white! Since I was not afraid of others protesting me and was conserned with the tech shed I figured I would go to them. The reason I did this was because last year (2003) an Omni was thrown out because he was missing his rear door panels. He thaught it was legal to remove them and they did not. I learned from that that I should ask first. IMHO if he had asked ahead of time they should have had the same answer thursday that they had saturday. Then he could have done something about it and instead of showing up as a DQ he would have shown up as a 2nd place!

Stephen

Hope I clarified things.

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I work retail...Toys R Us at that!</font>

Hey Stephen, hook a fellow racer up w/ a PS2!!! My son broke his, and I wanted to get him a new one for X-mas.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Hey Stephen, hook a fellow racer up w/ a PS2!!! My son broke his, and I wanted to get him a new one for X-mas.

Bill where do you live? Call my cell phone... 603-496-5528 Leave me a message and I will have to call you back. I check my messages a few times a day. I don't have any at this moment but they might be coming! not many though!

Stephen

[Catch22]

Stephen has mentioned his annual tech in his region a couple of times here. In relation to class legality???
Hmmm... Around here all they look for in Annual Tech are the safety requirements. They look at NOTHING in regards to legality outside of safety. Are things different elsewhere?

I've only been racing with SCCA for 2 years, but I've been around the club for 10 years. From what I've seen, there are alot of "interpretation" issues. In other words, someone read the rules and felt that the rules allowed what they did. This ends up being a matter of interpretation from the stewards, and from Topeka if it goes that far. Thats where you find out if you're legal from what I've seen.

As far as getting an answer ahead of time... I'm not sure how you'd "officially" do that. Its easy to get a friend thats a steward or just very knowlegeable about the rules to look at it and tell you what they think. But if youre looking for a signed piece of paper that you can carry around that officially blesses something you've done... I don't expect you'll get it.

On a side note, and I may be in the minority, but I like the way things are currently done at the ARRC. Winner takes off the head and the other 2 podium spots get their intake and exhaust ports checked. Fuel is tested, ride height is checked, and of course you roll across the scales. Finally, the podium sits there with their hoods up for at least an hour (we were there 2 hours this year) for anyone to see. Want to protest something... There it is, protest it.

I've heard several people say that there should be more extensive teardowns at the ARRC. I wholeheartedly disagree. This is AMATEUR CLUB RACING! There are no big checks on the line, no contracts with Penske... Its supposed to be for FUN.
Its not fun, as a reward for winning the race, to spend the entire night reassembling your car so you can run the enduro on Sunday. You should be drinking beer, eating cajun food, and celebrating your good finish. Because lets face it, thats the only real reward you get.

I know, lots of rambling, but its a touchy subject for me. Cheaters will cheat and they'll probably eventually get caught... Fine. Great. Whatever.
In the meantime we need to be careful to not suck all of the fun out of this sport in an effort to catch a few guys in the dishonest minority (and I do believe its a minority). I don't know about you guys, but FUN is all I'm getting out of this stuff.

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#22 ITC Honda Civic
3rd Place 2004 ARRC
1st Place 2004 ARRC Enduro

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Catch22:
..... Cheaters will cheat and they'll probably eventually get caught... Fine. Great. Whatever.
In the meantime we need to be careful to not suck all of the fun out of this sport in an effort to catch a few guys in the dishonest minority (and I do believe its a minority). .....

I hope both statements are true......but am cynical. You mentioned the ARRCs...

I tool a look at lots of cars. In one class, about 70% of the cars were missing parts that should be there. I even questioned the officials about it, who at first said they were perfectly legal, then when I quoted the GCR, they brushed it off as "no big deal"....

Well, maybe no, maybe yes. But it could make one think...if they are willing to cheat on the obvious stuff......

How about the E36 with the slotted/drilled rotors?

Or the class with the fenders that weren't quite stock. Enough to lower the car further...A lower car can corner better, and so on...

I know, If I don't like it I am free to protest, but as always, two things are big deterents...How do you protest the majority of a class? And the officials attitude was that I was being a nerd.

Did these guys win because they had removed some parts and were running their cars lower because they had flared their fenders?

No.....but only because it appears most of them did it.

It IS amatuer racing...but I would like to see a better attitude, and a little more respect for the rules.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited December 18, 2004).]