Who do you go to?

[Karl Bocchieri]

Stephen,
The cheap way to find out if it's legal is to have your brother protest you. That way it only costs $25 not $125.

[Catch22]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I tool a look at lots of cars. In one class, about 70% of the cars were missing parts that should be there. I even questioned the officials about it, who at first said they were perfectly legal, then when I quoted the GCR, they brushed it off as "no big deal"....

Well, maybe no, maybe yes. But it could make one think...if they are willing to cheat on the obvious stuff......

How about the E36 with the slotted/drilled rotors?

Are you saying that cars with obviously modified fenders and slotted rotors finished on the podium of a recent (within the last 3 to 5 years) ARRC?
If so, I find that hard to believe. I know I would certainly point out slotted rotors on a car in impound and so would everyone else I know. Again, hard for me to believe and I've never seen anything like that slide through ARRC impound.
I've seen cars booted for not having passenger side glass and for not having the ballast in the right place though, so somebody is looking.

I see obvious violations all the time on the backmarker cars that never make it to impound. Thing is, they are backmarkers, so nobody really cares. If another backmarker wants to protest them to move up one spot to 12th place... Well... Fine. Do it.
But I certainly don't care if the guy I lap in nearly every race has cross drilled rotors.

And my final thought on obvious things like modified fenders and slotted rotors, especially at the ARRC, is this... Why in the world would anybody spend the kind of time and money it takes to win at the ARRC and risk being DQ'd for something as dumb as slotted rotors. Its a zero bond protest that will take a stewart about 5 seconds to make a call on. That is just plain dumb and its why I believe you won't find crap like that on the front running cars.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
It IS amatuer racing...but I would like to see a better attitude, and a little more respect for the rules

Yeah, me too. But I don't want to see mandatory tear downs, not even at the ARRC, to get to that respect. Again, that saps my fun right out of the sport.
When I see something obvious, I point it out to the guy. If he doesn't change it, and he beats me, I'll protest it. At that point he has chosen to do things the hard way, so we'll do it the hard way <shrug>.

Scott, who truly (maybe nievely) believes that the ARRC front runners have made every effort to cross Ts and dot Is.


------------------
#22 ITC Honda Civic
3rd Place 2004 ARRC
1st Place 2004 ARRC Enduro

[lateapex911]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Are you saying that cars with obviously modified fenders and slotted rotors finished on the podium of a recent (within the last 3 to 5 years) ARRC? </font>

Yes, and no. Fenders, yes...and not just one car. Maybe they were only visible to someone with a good eye.

Rotors, no, not on the podium. I saw those in the impound area while the podium cars were undergoing their checks.

I think that the Atlanta Region tries to do a good job, and the only reason the ARRCs has achevied the promininence it has is due to the automatic compliance checks.

(It is interesting that more top flight cars DON'T attend the race.............)

I do feel however that no matter where you finish, if you have an obvious item like slotted rotors, the officials should write an RFA, and that's that. It's a big event. I would rather finish 5th than 6th...so even if the guy didn't make the podium, it still matters.

I agree, that at most regional raes, guys with obvious issues many seconds off the pace aren't really worth the worry. Odds are they are just starting, or might have bought the car that way. I know MANY people who got into racing, then spent a year making their car legal. The list of issues is sobbering. When those things come up, it's abvious that somebody ran the car in that condition with the intent to perform for the period the former owner ran the car. A friendly "informative" chat might be in order there.

I agree that anybody who thinks they could finish well at the ARRCs has prepped their car properly, or is just not smart.

But....that's the downside of the system. After watching the tech procedures, and talking with the officials, it is very easy for me to come up with a laundry list of items that I can do to my car and others that will make a huge difference. And everyone else knows it too. I really have no idea if cars are or are not taking advantage of items they know WON'T be checked.

For that reason, I do wish there were some form of "lottery" that dug deeper. But...I know that it would really suck if your name was called.

Still, the overwhelming impression I left the ARRCs with this year, regarding compliance, was that I now know what I know, and now I definately know what I don't know ....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITBRSH]

Please note that tech inspectors are first to check and verify the safety of the cars. They are not class and rule experts, but can determine legal issues on any safety issue. When you get into specific modifications for a car or class, they are not experts. As noted by others, there is a different process to determine legal/illegal mods.

[Catch22]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Rotors, no, not on the podium. I saw those in the impound area while the podium cars were undergoing their checks.

I do feel however that no matter where you finish, if you have an obvious item like slotted rotors, the officials should write an RFA, and that's that. It's a big event. I would rather finish 5th than 6th...so even if the guy didn't make the podium, it still matters.

And why do the officials need to write an RFA for such a thing???

If the guy with slotted rotors finished 5th, and you finished 6th and want that spot... PROTEST IT!
It won't cost you a thing. Just point it out to a steward in impound and file the paperwork. DONE!

Again, this is amateur racing and part of that is the competitors policing themselves. The stewards CAN write an RFA, but if they don't there is certainly nothing stopping a competitor from pulling out a pen. Thats how the system works and its not perfect but it would work better if more people would use it.

You know, that guy probably STILL has slotted rotors on his car, and its the fault of all his competitors at the ARRC that saw it and ignored it.

[gran racing]

It is too bad someone else didn't talk to the individual about the rotors. Maybe it was an honest mistake? Or maybe not.

I'm sure it would have been a bit awkward for Jake to file another protest right now. Although it would be interesting to hear the Protest Story Part II.

Obtaining rules clarification can be very frustrating. Especially when someone is new to the sport, the GCR can be pretty intimidating. When I was building my car, I was faced with several items I was unclear about. The biggest one was related to my cage. Prior to joining SCCA, I participated in several HPDEs. I decided to put a roll bar in the car since I was only using the car for HPDEs anyways and wanted some extra safety. At that time, I always thought about doing SCCA racing so I had it built to meet IT specs. When building the cage, the shop recommended that I use a thicker then required tubing to make it safer. Then if weight ever became an issue, I could tear it out and start from scratch. A couple years later I decided to make the car IT legal and needed to finish the cage. But I did not want the remaining portion of the cage to be as thick as what was used for the roll bar. So I went on my adventure to determine if this was legal or not. (Things were tight financially so I couldn't afford to start from scratch) I read the rule book over and over again and got several people opinions. But before doing it, I wanted to know for sure. I sent an e-mail to the club racing tech dept. but never received a response. I then called them and was pointed to the person I needed to speak with. I was never able to get in touch with him and he never returned any of my calls. Very annoying. I spoke with a more local tech inspector and he thought it "should" be o.k. Well, I needed to know for certain. I understood his position and didn't want to be liable for misinformation. Later in the process I was pointed to Jermey at headquarters who clarified things for me. I couldn't get it in writing and had to trust that he would back me up if need be. Everything went smoothly when getting my car teched but needless to say the inability to obtain clarification certainly made things stressful and slowed my car build process up a lot.

(Once I found Jermey in club racing tech's dept., things went much easier. He was always willing to clarify things and actually returned my calls. No, I didn't bug him too much but there were a few items I needed to clarify.)

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Catch22:
And why do the officials need to write an RFA for such a thing???

If the guy with slotted rotors finished 5th, and you finished 6th and want that spot... PROTEST IT!
It won't cost you a thing. Just point it out to a steward in impound and file the paperwork. DONE!

Again, this is amateur racing and part of that is the competitors policing themselves. The stewards CAN write an RFA, but if they don't there is certainly nothing stopping a competitor from pulling out a pen. Thats how the system works and its not perfect but it would work better if more people would use it.

You know, that guy probably STILL has slotted rotors on his car, and its the fault of all his competitors at the ARRC that saw it and ignored it.

I hear ya.....but...

The ARRCs are different. At that event I would prefer that the officials feel free to do some RFA writing. As it is, they pretty much (from what I can see) look only at the podium cars.

A few reasons for MY not protesting him:
- Not in my class. I know.... it doesn't matter...
- It DOES cost. A lot of time, and effort, and some money too, although that gets returned. But the time aspect is potentially quite large. I know, no excuse....
- The usual bad blood. From my point of view, others in his class were staring at the rotors and if THEY couldn't handle the situation, then I have no business doing it.

Sure I could write paper, but I think we, as a community need to share the load. I'll worry about my own class.....

But, at the ARRCs, I would prefer that the officials write up all obvious issues.

I am fully aware it's not their job, and I know they aren't experts on everything, but stuff like this is so easy, and should be nipped in the bud at this event, IMHO.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Catch22]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
From my point of view, others in his class were staring at the rotors and if THEY couldn't handle the situation, then I have no business doing it.

And there you have the jist of it.

If competitors aren't willing to call out folks on obvious violations then they have no business complaining about it. People are people and they do what people do, this means that some people with ALWAYS either misunderstand the rules or just straight up cheat. It is, in club racing, the responsibility of the entrants to police each other, not the officials. Thats the way it should be IMVHO.

In short, if you want people held accountable for rules violations but are either too lazy or too chicken to pick up a pen, then you need to be pro racing.
Note: not aimed at Jake or anyone in particular. Kind of aimed at everyone in unparticular.

Sorry guys, I'm just sick of hearing people grumble that this person or that person is cheating and EVERY TIME I say "Well, go protest them." I get some excuse as to why they can't or won't do it. Then... at some point in the future the same person is bitching and moaning again.
I hate that.

I don't think anyone at the top of my class in my division is cheating. There is no reason to think they would be. Nobody has a dominant car and several of them have won the ARRC several times.
But if I DID think someone was cheating, especially that special someone who kicks everyone's butts all year but never shows up for the ARRC (not happening in my class, but it happens in others), I'd be all over it with a pen and paper.
Not because I'm a rules Nazi, but because thats how the system is designed to keep things in check. If nobody uses it (as imperfect as it is) things will definately go all to hell.

Scott, who says "Hell, if that guy's gonna run slotted rotors I will too." (get it?)

------------------
#22 ITC Honda Civic
3rd Place 2004 ARRC
1st Place 2004 ARRC Enduro

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by Catch22:
Stephen has mentioned his annual tech in his region a couple of times here. In relation to class legality???
Hmmm... Around here all they look for in Annual Tech are the safety requirements. They look at NOTHING in regards to legality outside of safety. Are things different elsewhere?

I'm sorry ot have mislead you. Youy are correct that annual tech is for safety only and anything that was reported or "written up" in your log book form the previous season. Our region seems to be the same as yours. The only non safety thing I have had checked is the fule test port.

Originally posted by Catch22:

I've only been racing with SCCA for 2 years, but I've been around the club for 10 years. From what I've seen, there are alot of "interpretation" issues. In other words, someone read the rules and felt that the rules allowed what they did. This ends up being a matter of interpretation from the stewards, and from Topeka if it goes that far. Thats where you find out if you're legal from what I've seen.

As far as getting an answer ahead of time... I'm not sure how you'd "officially" do that. Its easy to get a friend thats a steward or just very knowlegeable about the rules to look at it and tell you what they think. But if youre looking for a signed piece of paper that you can carry around that officially blesses something you've done... I don't expect you'll get it.

My issue is that it is interpreted differently everywhere. My car was found legal in my region but they did "discuss" it before they let me leave inpound. I wnated to know how the inspectors interpreted the rule at that event. I didn't care about anything after that weekend. If you finish in the top three you get torn down by the tech inspectors. YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO TO THEM (ALL OF THEM) AT THE BEGGINING OF THE WEEKEND TO DETERINE THERE INTERPRETATION. It is completly different if another competitor protests you and it goes to the SOM but if the tech inspectors interpret that it is legal then you should be incompliance for the weekend if you are impounded NOT if another competitor protests you.

If a competitor or the SOM came to me ahead of time and said that I was being protested then I would have asked what do I need ot do to be in compliance. I would then most likely make any and all changes that are required to be in compliance for how they interpret the rules. I want to play fair and in the rules. If anyone thinks/thaught or is even suspicious I wnat to know so I can fix the problem. Racing should be fun your right! If you think I'm cheating and then your behind me you can't honestly be having complete fun if your pist becaseu you think I am cheating. Be open and honest!

Stephen

PS:
The 2 hr wait after impound with the hoods up only lets you see the car to protest them at the next event. No competitor can protest or suggest to a steward that a car be protested after the 1/2 hr window before race start.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
... If a competitor or the SOM came to me ahead of time and said that I was being protested then I would have asked what do I need ot do to be in compliance. ...

I have NO doubt that they would explain that they just can't do that - that you have to be protested first, before they can act and establish findings.

No question. That's just how the system works and frankly, it's that way at least in part because it results in the least hassles in the tech shed.

The stewards and tech folks are at the track to have fun, too and they'd rather be at the BBQ drinking beer and telling stories, than up to their armpits in someone's coolant.

I pulled off the track after a quailifying session at VIR and asked if I needed to stick around after crossing the scales. The tech guy looked at the side of my car, laughed, and said, "There's a National here this weekend - we don't look at no damned IT cars." He was kidding of course but, for a joke to be funny, there has to be some kernel of truth to it...

K

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by Knestis:
The stewards and tech folks are at the track to have fun, too and they'd rather be at the BBQ drinking beer and telling stories, than up to their armpits in someone's coolant.

K

I give up.

If you read through my posts again you will see that this is what I wanted to accomplish. I don't want any hassles in the tech shed and that's why I asked ahead of time.

Stephen

[ITANorm]

Stephen,

In short; based on what I understand of your description of your intake, IMHO, it is not "ram air" since it doesn't actually terminate in the airstream. If you had extended the hose to the front valence, or the radiator surround, and penetrated it -then that's a different story. If the one in the fenderwell is in the stock location -it's good.

Secondly - as a Steward; I'd recommend that you seek out the Chief Steward (preferably on Friday evening, and before too many beers ) and ask his interpretation. He's the one who has to actually administer the RFA, and if he's already told you it's legal, that might well make a difference.