E-36 Restrictor Plate/Andy Bettencourt

[Matt Rowe]

Then how do you determine what is a factory authorized repair when dealing with something like crash damage. I've looked through my Factory Shop Manuals and nowhere does it state service procedures for repairs that would including rebending frames and sheet metal which would also typically include rewelding. So does that mean without documentation the work can not be done?

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but it brings up a real concern as my car was obviously involved in an accident before I bought it. As part of the repair a seam was welded in order to fix the torn spot welds. Is this legal. And if so how do you draw the line between this and the preventative repairs done on the E36.

Also, what's to stop a factory looking to support their cars in racing from issuing a TSB on something like a new cam. Remember TSB's aren't required so it wouldn't cost the factory anything but suddenly all the brand X cars could be claiming their cam, flywheel, pistons failed due to reason X, here is an authorized replacement and they now have a faster car that is theoretically legal. If we deviate from what was supplied to the public at large soon we might end up back in the days like SS in the late 80's early 90's where factory backed cars were anything but what the generally public could have. Right now it would be easy for Mazda to authorize a new cam for the Miata and a large number of SS and IT racers could suddenly be much more competitive. Is that what we want to allow?

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer:
What?

The factory authorized fix for the rear subframe failure is to weld reinforcement plates to the body at the four mounting points above the differential carrier, as shown in the pictures from bimmerforums.

The factory authorized fix for front subframe cracking is to weld reinforcement plates to the front subframe at the motor mount points. The front subframe is what is pictured on the AT website.

OK, nowhere here has anyone stated that welding anything in the rear EXCEPT fatory issued plates to the body could even be considered *possibly legal*......so picture #2 on the first gallery page shows a "rear diff reinforcment", and it is clearly not a body section, even to my easily confused eye.

Is that okie dokie too?

And...can someone show me, in those pictures, where the body had the BMW parts welded on? I can't seem to find them.

(just as an aside. IF there is a legitimate concern from a factory, and it appears there is in this case, proper procedures should be followed, and proper reinforcements should be legal. Which is completely different that wholesale welding everywhere.)



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Matt,

Before, I would have said that the scenarios you laid out could have been an issue. But now, w/ PCA's in place, if a car gets a bounce from new factory parts, it can also get some lead (or a restrictor plate).

I'm also surprised that no one has mentioned 17.1.4.D

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">No permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function</font>

I dare say that you could make a solid case that chassis/pickup point reinforcement is a prohibited function.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[JeffG]

Originally posted by DMaynard:
Hi All:

Little information about us, our company repairs and services BMW's exclusively, we have all factory testing equipment and tools. Dan (my husband) has been working on BMW's exclusively since 1980.

Deb,

An urelated question. I occasionally thrash my 525 a bit on the road, is the 5 series also subject to this structural weakness?

Thanks - Jeff

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by JeffG:
... I occasionally thrash my 525 a bit on the road, is the 5 series also subject to this structural weakness?

Thanks - Jeff

Absolutely. Especially if you have two dogs in the back of your wagon version while towing a trailer.

It's hell on the set up.

Gregg Baker
528ITA wagon daily driver.

[DMaynard]

We haven't seen any chassis problems with 525's

Deb

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3D Race Team
Driver: Dave Maynard
Crew: Dan, Larry & Deb
E36 BMW 325i (Red)
#18 ITS
Just Trying to Keep it FUN!!!

[ths57]

Originally posted by lateapex911:


And...can someone show me, in those pictures, where the body had the BMW parts welded on? I can't seem to find them.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ths57:

Perhaps I should rephrase that question...

Can anyone show me, on the AutoTecnics website, where THEY have used the factory parts on the body?

(Which would be the only "reinforcing" solution that would have a chance at legality in the rear.)

That shot is from Turner, right?



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JeffG]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Absolutely. .... It's hell on the set up.

Damn! I guess I'll have to give up playing on entrance ramps then slowing way down to highway speeds

Jeff

[Geo]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
Right now it would be easy for Mazda to authorize a new cam for the Miata and a large number of SS and IT racers could suddenly be much more competitive.

Sure, they could spec a non-production cam in a TSB. Getting reclassed upward would put a halt to that however.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Matt Rowe]

Agreed, they could get reclassed or their weight adjusted if the advantage was extreme. But then again we've all seen the storm of controversy over the intake restrictor for the E36. It seems to me that reclassifying or adjusting a car is not that easy, even if the car is ALMOST universally acknowledged as an overdog.

Look I'm not saying it's going to happen but by opening the door to allowing any TSB or factory authorized modification it opens vthe door. Who was it that wanted new heads for their Lotus based on it being the now factory authorized part?



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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Ron Earp]

Hold up on that Matt.

That is not what I said. And, it isn't a Lotus. I'm racing a Jensen Healey, motor by Lotus.

I made comments that I didn't like how some interpreted rules to allow a lot of things to happen - hence this discussion on this thread with BMWs. I also mentioned that since Jensen Healey didn't exist that Lotus was the "supplier" for parts for this car - this is true. And, if you call Lotus and want to buy a brand new head you'll be sent a head with big valves. Same if you want new cams, you'll get big cams.

I am not doing this and will not do this, if you read you'll find my response "tonque in cheek". I'll scavenge and make do with the stock parts because I know that is what the rules meant, even if they don't cover my exact instance. I was just pointing out that if certain folks were building a JH then this is what would happen.

Take it for what you will. Cheating sucks, and although I'm brand new I get the feeling it happens, more so on some models than others, but I might be wrong.

Come spec my JH, you'll find it in order and I suppose next year we'll find out if it is at the back or front. The hood will ALWAYS be up, you can always take a look. Stand there for more than 30 seconds and I'm putting a wrench in your hand (with warm beer if it is after hours) - its English, stuff is gonna break!!!

Ron

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited December 09, 2004).]

[Matt Rowe]

Ron,

It must not have come across but my tongue was firmly in cheek when I mentioned your car. And I'm sorry about not referring to it as a Jenson Healey. To put your mind at ease I applaud the attitude you seem to have taken putting together a car you want to run and living with where that puts you without stretching the rules.

I certainly didn't mean to imply your up to no good the point was if we start allowing unrestricted TSB work or parts substitution for superseeded parts than a lesser man than you might take the easier path. And that was meant with all sincerity.

BTW, what tracks will you have your Jenson at. I promise I won't be looking under the hood for cheating. Just curious to see an IT prepped JH. I've been around enough old british machinery to know the term "low-maintenance" has never applied.



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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[JeffYoung]

Matt, Ron and I are in the Raleigh/Durham/Cary area in NC. I run a TR8 in ITS, have for the last two years. Ron's car will make its debut this year in S as well. Our paddock area will officially be known as Team Oddball.

You'll probably see teh cars at VIR, Roebling, Kershaw, Lowe's and Road Atlanta. I saw you are a MARRS guy, come on down to VIR for SARRC/MARRS in May. GREAT event -- 500+ cars, usually good weather, and a great track.

[Ron Earp]

Sorry Matt, I didn't mean to get fired up. As a newbie this cheating thing is not cool and I'm reading with interest the responses on the other thread that is about cheating specifically.

This thread here was very unique in the way it started and, how it is playing out is probably not what the starter intended. I notice he hasn't posted back here since. I dunno, but from where I'm standing it looks like there is a problem with those cars that I bet will seriously be looked at next time one shows at the track.

Ron

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:

Also, what's to stop a factory looking to support their cars in racing from issuing a TSB on something like a new cam.

Slow down and breathe.

For a factory to do this, it must be for a 'stock' part that they sell as a 'stock replacement' to a superceeded part, thru the dealer parts network.

A 'stock replacement' part would need to be certified as emmissions-compliant, as it would be the spec'ed part to replace a worn-out street car cam. That means Fed. certification, blah blah blah quack quack quack. It's not a simple process - it's not something that the manufacturer can pencil-whip.

You guys are starting to report Black Helicopter sightings.

I do find this whole BMW subframe thing hysterical. Sometimes, you don't have to turn over the rocks, as they turn themselves over !!!!

[Matt Rowe]

Okay, say a cam is a bad example. But what about pistons, a larger bore throttle body, spherical suspension bushings etc. It's amazing what a little parts bin engineering could do. Off the shelf items like that can help a "weak" point of a car and there is no certification required on a number of parts. So where do we draw the line on TSB's. Honestly I'm curious because if superseeded parts are alllowed a lot of older cars might just need to check out there dealers parts book.



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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Joe Harlan]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Then how do you determine what is a factory authorized repair when dealing with something like crash damage. I've looked through my Factory Shop Manuals and nowhere does it state service procedures for repairs that would including rebending frames and sheet metal which would also typically include rewelding. So does that mean without documentation the work can not be done? </font>

Matt, Industry standards is what would apply. There are standards used to make repairs and its funny but when you have frame rail replaced at a body shop they spot weld (even if it is a mig) the parts much like the origina, They have to concern themselfs with crush zones and the like. If I saw something like reinforcment patchs and gussets made up it would bring a protest right away. Some cars will crack the frame rails, I grind out the crack weld it pull a minimal patch panel over it and call it good. You can't just weld a crack. Cmmon sense says a 3" patch panel is one thing. A 24" patch panel stitch welded with a gussett is chasssis stiffening and nothing more.

[Karl Bocchieri]

A BMW dealer would never spend the man hours to prep and weld a sub frame, they would just put a new one in. RX-7's have a front subframe that is spot welded and can bend, does that mean I can seam weld it, and plate it to strengethen it, to prevent it from breaking?
I think someone in a tech position needs to make a judgenent on this one, or is it going to cost us $25 to find out.

[lateapex911]

I really don't think we need a techs opinion on this one!

The only possible reinforcement that might be legal on the rear is the extra plates on the unibody. As far as I can see, (and nobody has provided data that the AutoTechnics cars have done this) it hasn't been done, and the welding that HAS been done is on parts that have no chance of being legal in any way.

It seems obvious to me...but can anyone provide a legitimate case to the contrary?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]