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Thread: January FasTrack is up!

  1. #21
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    Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
    ... The ITAC WILL review and consider each letter it receives. Just because you can request it certainly doesn't mean it will be approved.

    Not arguing with Andy - just with the concept.

    Okay, guys, Please explain again how PCAs are different than "competition adjustments." This might seem like picking nits but I'm going to put on my symbolic interationist poofy hat again and beat on the point that it DOES matter how these policies are worked out in the real world.

    If someone is systematically looking at cars (all of them, samples, outliers, whatever) and asking whether the spec weights "make sense," relative to some standard or process, that is an inherently benign process. (Even IF there are subjective factors in the process, by the way.)

    They system is more or less transparent, repeatable - as long as there is some continuity or overlap in the people doing the decision making - and relative easy to defend from accusations of favoritism.

    Perhaps more importantly, the on-track performance of small samples of car/driver/budget factors are less likely to influence decisionss. Finally, it is relatively harder to make a change so while change IS possible, it is "damped" in that adjustments won't be made often.

    This is in contrast to the way that CAs have traditionally been applied in club racing. The point at which I can say, "Please take some weight off of my car - or add some to Bob's - because I can't beat him" is the point at which all of the good attributes of the PCA concept, as it was described, go out the window.

    Because it's how our brains work, decision makers are encouraged to go looking at easy samples - like the RubOffs - as they try to make "objective" decisions. These data are easy-to-understand but TINY, inappropriate indictors of what might or might not actually be happening across the space in which the policy is getting applied.

    If I rationalize my request with math - power/weight or whatever - rather than with, "Wah! Bob beats me all the time" - my motivation is STILL the latter, regardless of how I make my case. Like a little girl who wants a pony, if I ask long enough, loud enough, and with enough support, I will eventually find someone willing to give me what I want.

    Now Bob sees how the system works and applies the same strategy. (Or someone else does, when Bob loses interest and sells them his car.) People discover that having friendly ears in the right places DOES make a difference or, more likely and potentially just as damaging, people see the appearance of this going on.

    The system loses credibility, performance creeps upward in a given class, decisions get made based on ARRC finishes, slow people driving the same car as the "fast guy" get lead meant for him, rare cars become wild cards, and weights become a moving target.

    I would rather have the ossified, pre-ITAC system than that.

    K

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by pgipson:
    RX7 stays in ITA (for now??)
    Thats what it looks like to me. So we get to continue on our merry way.

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  3. #23
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    *something* was going to be done to my car to slow it down, then I would much rather have a t-body restrictor than lead.

    Lead, on the other hand, not only affects acceleration but it affects braking, handling, tire wear, etc. I'd personally rather drive a lighter, less powerful car than a heavier, powerful car.
    [/B]
    I think you're hitting on something I was wondering about.

    And, it leaves me thinking.

    When I looked at the list for a car to build and asked questions like "What about this car, it is pretty cool, decent motor, might be fast" sometimes the car I picked was heavy. The reponse I got was "it'll be rough on brakes, handling, tires, and tramission, you'd best pick another one".

    So, the BMW at a race weight near it's curb weight would be heavy as you mentioned, and be rough on parts, as you mentioned. But, it'd be like other heavy cars on the list. So be it - if it is heavy then you have to take it as it is and the good with the bad.

    Instead of the BMW racing like that, as other cars do, the BMW got weight cut off to make it competitive and allowing it to race well below curb weight. Why would this car get that type of treatment but the others race near curb weight?

    And in doing so now at the low weight the car suddenly became an overdog. The fix implimented is a restrictor plate, but to me the logical choice would have been to put the weight back to the point where it was or should have been at the beginning. Seems odd to me, but as I've mentioned before I don't know the history of the series nor how things like this came to pass in the first place.

    Ron


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    Ron
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  4. #24
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    Chis Ludwig: "See my post on the installation of aftermarket EMSs. In that thread NO ONE answered the direct question that was posed in the first post about why the double standard on allowing electrical modifications but making it harder than it needs to be to perform that modification. They'll allow you to go full bore on engine managment but make it more difficult and expensive to install it. And then we'll listen to people complain about it being hard and expensive and it shouldn't be allowed. Either allow the modification in it's simplest form or outlaw it all together is my theory."

    Chris, I think no one responded because this topic had already been covered in another post and several people including me touched on the subject of your query. There is no intent to "make it hard" - the intent is to try to maintain the "stock" fiction of the IT class philosophy, with which I agree. Line drawing is always subjective but they settled on the harness. Frankly, I don't think they contemplated entire EMSs inside the box; they were thinking of chips, programming, etc. The error here is the words "or replace" in 17.1.4.D.1.a.6 not the restriction to use the OEM harness. Indeed, look at 17.1.4.D.1.s, which appears to be a redundant and inconsistent ECU rule that does NOT allow replacement of the ECU! I say "outlaw it all together."

    As to the resistor, I suspect some people were trying to bootstrap the ability to add a resistor [where is that - not in my 2004 GCR?] into a feigned necessity to then modify the harness. And there you go. However, I think what they actually mean is that you cannot modify or replace the harness plugs at the ECU - you simply find the sensor wire in the harness and splice in the resistor. I did that w/ the water thermosensor.


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    Bill Denton
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  5. #25
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    I have a question. How is the restrictor plate going to be policed? Is tech going to inspect after each race, or once a weekend, or only at annual? I don't drive a BMW, In fact I drive a 280Zx,but can already see opportunity for plates with different sized holes for tracks that are lax with inspections. Maybe i'm thinking as someone who would take any advantage to win. just my thoughts



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    Datsun 280ZX #12 WMR

  6. #26
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    My guess is the restrictors will not get measured unless a competitor asks them to be checked(Protest) That is the downside to them instead of weight. Tech can see right away if a car is too light.
    The only way our rules will work is for people to ask for these things to be checked. Allowing even 1 illegal car to compete throws the whole system out of balance....What I see happen when it comes to rules is this. If there is one fast model in the country all the others are held to that standard.....That may be OK as long as we know that 1 unit is completely legal. The MR2 is a perfect example of this. I have to assume that somewhere in history somebody got their ass handed to them by a really fast one and thats why the car is treated like a redheaded step kid by the SCCA...The question is if that was the case, Was the car legal?

  7. #27
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    A former World Challenge driver, who has lots of experience with constant adding and removing of weight, explained it to me this way...
    Unless you're talking about HUGE amounts of weight (over 300lbs) the lead addition will not really slow the car down. What it will do is wear brakes and tires faster, but in 30 minute sprint races that might not even matter. They also found that weight addition actually made the car faster at the end of some straights, especially if it was down hill (like Road Atlanta or VIR for example).

    So... Weight = More wear and more broken parts but really not that much slower.
    Restrictor = Slower without breaking the bank on tires and brakes and half shafts.

    Looks to me like the board tried to get this one right on the first shot instead of plucking at it for 2 or 3 years. I'm perfectly OK with that.

    Oh, I drive an ITC Civic. I'll put that in my sig.

  8. #28
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    A restrictor plate is very easy to police. What people are not realizing is that every ECU must now be reprogrammed to lean the mixture to compensate for less air flow. I know the chassis dyno people are thinking BONUS!!!!

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  9. #29
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Unless you're talking about HUGE amounts of weight (over 300lbs) the lead addition will not really slow the car down. [/B]</font>
    But, wouldn't 300-400 lbs get it back close to its curb weight? What I was wondering is how it was allowed to drift so far off of its curb weight in the first place?

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  10. #30
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    Here is the truth about weight. If it is going to be just weight added then it takes a lot of weight to do the job...If it is going to be penalty weight then make it a penalty....75lbs hanging under the front mounted radiator is going to do more than 150lbs in the passenger seat.

  11. #31
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    Actually I think the Restrictor is the way to go. Added weight...to an already heavy car...makes the car use brakes and tires quicker. Adding the restrictor will kill some of the "excessive" horsepower without upsetting the chassis.

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    Chuck Baader
    #36 ITA E30 BMW
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  12. #32
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    Trust me on this, Ron - trying to make spec weights relate to curb weights is going to drive you mad. One just doesn't have anything to do with the other.

    K

  13. #33
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    I understand people's comments about the restrictor, it's just that I thought the spec weight would have at least been adjusted to what the process showed it to be. I thought that one of the ITAC guys said that the current spec weight was below what the calculated weight was.

    Kirk,

    You hit the nail on the head as to why I've advocated a set, open process for classifying cars.

    And it seems like "fits the performance parameters of the class" is the new catch-all. Easy to use, especially if nobody knows what those parameters are.

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  14. #34
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    Originally posted by Bill Miller:
    ...seems like "fits the performance parameters of the class" is the new catch-all. Easy to use, especially if nobody knows what those parameters are.
    Yeah, but...

    On the other hand if those parameters were made public then there would be an endless flood of letters and 300+ post threads about how certain adders/subtractors weren't backed up with enough conclussive data to support their value. These adders have to be educated guesses (not WAG as some might suggest). How can they scientifically be anything but?

    Even with the best intentions the HP guess could be off 5% or more. That skews the bottom line by a similar amount (dependant on magnitude of adders). 5% on a 2000-3000# IT car is 100-150# so arguing about whether a Carb vs FI, Live Axle vs. IRS, Strut vs. Double Wishbone, or FWD vs. RWD should be a 50, 75 or 100# adjustment is really a mute point.

    I feel that we should just accept the efforts of the ITAC to make things better without putting their efforts under a microscope...if it makes sense build the car, if it doesn't don't.

    --Daryl DeArman
    Caldwell D-13 Vintage FVee.

  15. #35
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    Originally posted by Quickshoe:
    Yeah, but...

    I feel that we should just accept the efforts of the ITAC to make things better without putting their efforts under a microscope...--Daryl DeArman
    Caldwell D-13 Vintage FVee.
    I'm with you on those points..

    I think the BIG issue here is that the car has become such an overacheiver..much more power than was expected. I like the move. In the BMW thread, I was betting they would add a little weight AND a restrictor...

    But I think that in this case the restrictor is the way to go. It would have needed a lot of weight, and it seems to be on the money in the braking and handling areas as is.

    I remember talking about the whole "limited" concept with someone (in a decision making position)a long time ago, and the restrictor was discussed...as an "extreme" item the ITAC could have in it's back pocket to use if needed. Then we talked about the E36.



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  16. #36
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    Originally posted by chuck baader:
    A restrictor plate is very easy to police. What people are not realizing is that every ECU must now be reprogrammed to lean the mixture to compensate for less air flow. I know the chassis dyno people are thinking BONUS!!!!

    I don't believe that to be the case with the E36. IIRC it has a MAF which will automatically adjust for changes in air mass.


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  17. #37
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    Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
    My guess is the restrictors will not get measured unless a competitor asks them to be checked(Protest)
    Don't bet on it.


  18. #38
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    Since the spec line for the car will list its weight and it's restrictor, it is more likely to be checked in impound than anything other than weight.

    It will happen a few times, but not often.

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    Jake Gulick
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    [This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited November 25, 2004).]

  19. #39
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    Originally posted by lateapex911:
    Since the spec line for the car will list its weight and it's restrictor, it is more likely to be checked in impound than anything other than weight.

    It will happen a few times, but not often.


    Jake,

    When was the last time you saw anything, other than weight, checked in impound, at a Regional race?

    It will be interesting to see what kind of penalties are handed out to cars that are found 'out of compliance' w.r.t. the restrictor. And unlike weight, checking for compliance is an 'invasive' procedure. The bond should be pretty low though.


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  20. #40
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    Originally posted by Bill Miller:

    When was the last time you saw anything, other than weight, checked in impound, at a Regional race?

    It will be interesting to see what kind of penalties are handed out to cars that are found 'out of compliance' w.r.t. the restrictor. And unlike weight, checking for compliance is an 'invasive' procedure. The bond should be pretty low though.


    They should just check them at the annual and tag the motor. Just like WC. No tags at post race tech = DQ. Easy enough.



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    Crazy Joe
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