Weight added to BMW e36

[bldn10]

"Funny I don't see the #70 SpeedSource Car on the entry list."

Sadly, I believe the famous 70 car was totalled and parted out some time ago. Syl was at the ARRC in '01 in Marcello Abello's No. 48 car and did a 1:41.5.





------------------
Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[GKR_17]

Originally posted by bldn10:
"Funny I don't see the #70 SpeedSource Car on the entry list."

Sadly, I believe the famous 70 car was totalled and parted out some time ago. Syl was at the ARRC in '01 in Marcello Abello's No. 48 car and did a 1:41.5.

Syl qualfied the 48 car at a 140.372 in 2001, which is faster than any E36 has done at the ARRC, in any year.

[ChrisCamadella]

Enlighten me, someone - What year did Road Atlanta get its current configuration - I mean the complete current configuration, including the removal of the dip, the addition of the HUGE runoff curb at the exit of the esses, etc.

You can't compare lap times unless it was on the exact same track configuration...

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

[oanglade]

It was already like that in 2001.


------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[seckerich]

If you watched the start of the race Chet made a STRONG move at the start to pass on the outside into turn 1 and pulled way out front by lap 2. York fell out and he dropped 2 seconds off his lap times and did just enough to win. Can you say sandbagging??

[JeffG]

Holding up a single race as THE data point is futile, even if it is the ARRC. It seems clear from any number of anecdotal descriptions that a fully built E36 motor can pull the same built RX7 by many car lengths in a straight. It's like racing with AS or GT3 cars that are not pushed to the limit.

How many years did it take SpeedSource to get to where they were in 2001. Great drivers with RR shocks and a crew to make significant changes quickly.

We are only starting to see the ultimate potential of the E36. With a clearly dominant wt/hp edge, the rest of the package will continue to evolve for some time to come.

[Super Swift]

Jeff

What tire did the SS guys run in 2001?
the old hoosier.

I am yet to be told the old tire is faster than the new. In fact...

[seckerich]

The number that keeps out of these discussions is TORQUE, and the E36 has 35 - 40 percent more than the Mazda. Put Sylvain in a BMW and you would see EP times at the ARRC. Rules on shocks have changed to slow the cars now and the track surface was new when sylvain ran those times. Apples and oranges.

[kthomas]

Originally posted by JeffG:

How many years did it take SpeedSource to get to where they were in 2001. Great drivers with RR shocks and a crew to make significant changes quickly.

It was the RR Shocks! Thank God we banned them! That sure rearranged the Grid! Oops, Chet won again. Well at least it wasn't in a 240Z with RR shocks! I feel a whole lot better now knowing he didn't spend a bunch of money on RR shocks and instead spent it on an E36.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

------------------
katman

[kthomas]

Originally posted by seckerich:
Rules on shocks have changed to slow the cars now

Sorry, all that rule did was make the guys that had them spend money to covert to something else. Didn't slow us down. It was a tax on rich people...

------------------
katman

[mlytle]

gotta love the comment about "sandbagging". hmm, if you are in front by a comfortable margin, why would you keep pushing a car to the absolute limit and risk a problem. build a lead and hold a constant gap to the next competitor. sheeesh.

[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited November 09, 2004).]

[chuck baader]

Correct me if I am wrong, BUT...Chet broke his track record held in his Z with a 325 last year? 1:4-.3xx? CB

[Geo]

Originally posted by kthomas:
Sorry, all that rule did was make the guys that had them spend money to covert to something else. Didn't slow us down. It was a tax on rich people...

Really? Then why did you need them in the first place?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[mlytle]

i though when i read the ra track record site the other day it said rx7 at a 1:40.8. looking at it again just now it says chet in a z at 1:41.0 in 2001. now that the race results have been posted looks like chet in his bmw dropped it to 1:40.9. except for chet, the top cars had pretty similar fast laps. when they broadcasting the race on speed? we wish!

[wburstein]

Let me see if I have it right.

Chet Wittel won the ARRC twice in a row in a 240Z. He then sold the Z to Larry Stepp.

Flash forward to the 2004 ARRC. Wittel wins followed by Stepp, both in E36 cars. Anyone want to guess why they are in BMWs?

Can a well prepped Z or RX-7 get close to an E36/46? Sure, in the right situation. At an even level (not cost!) of preparation, the BMW will win just about every time with equal drivers. Note that 7 of the top 10 at the 2004 ARRC were BMWs. What was once an even playing field for 240Z, RX-7, 944 and E30 is now pretty much a one car class. If you don't believe me, ask Chet Wittel or Ed York (2004 ARRC ITS pole).

I am not sure that minimal weight penalties and/or restrictor plates will fix this.

We do need to adjust this disparity in ITS before the attrition damages the class any worse. In the WDC region, our ITS fields have dropped from an average of 25 cars to less than 15 since the BMW E36 was introduced. I attribute that to many folks not wanting to race when they do not feel they have a chance to win.

I agree that the way to correct this is through reorganization of the class structure, rather than penalizing the BMWs. The last thing we want to do is to take new, exciting cars and cripple them.

We also don't want to force people in a regional class to have to buy new cars every few years just to remain competitive. IT was designed to be a relatively low cost place for older Showroom Stock cars to play. Minor competition adjustments make sense to me, but not ones as large as is necessary to bring the BMWs down to the level that ITS was before they were classed.

------------------
Wayne Burstein
WDC Region, ITS #10
www.mountainmotorsports.net

[This message has been edited by wburstein (edited November 09, 2004).]

[Ron Earp]

Are there enough cars for a new higher class? What cars would be in such a class?

If so throw in the late model naturally aspirated 300z and the 79-82 Porsche 928, should help things out a bit and give the BMW a run for the money.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

I think the E-36, Z32 N/A 300ZX's and perhaps early 928's would be a much better fit in D/P if it comes to fruition.

Do we really want an IT class that costs more than what is being spent to run up front in ITS right now?
I'd have to vote no on that one.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by rlearp:
Are there enough cars for a new higher class? What cars would be in such a class?

Well, let's see...

The "problem" currently with ITS is that the performance envelope keeps getting raised with all the newer, 170+ stock hp cars coming into the class. One could argue that if the "top" were lopped off of ITS a bit, then some of these higher hp cars could be classified up a class at a more reasonable weight. Can you get a '98 Prelude to 2600lbs? Can you get an Integra GS-R to 2400lbs??

If one sets a wt/pwr goal that makes these kinds of classifications achievable and creates a class above ITS, some of the pressure to move cars down from ITS to ITA would be alleviated, as the class benchmarks would come back to the RX-7 and 240Z, etc... Cars with 160hp or less in stock form and can be classified at a reasonable target weight. Cars like the GS-R, E36, etc., which could be made legally lighter, would then be classified in "ITU" at a more reasonable weight at a lower wt/pwr ratio. Imagine an E36 classified at 2700lbs... Or a GS-R at 2425lbs, etc... (all assuming, of course, that research shows that these weights are achievable...)

Here is a sample of cars that might be able to fit the mold of "ITU"... Feel free to suggest more...

[list]
Make Model Version[*]Acura Integra GS-R (92-93)[*]Acura Integra GS-R (3 door) (94-95) + 96-99[*]Acura RSX Type-S 2002[*]Acura Integra 97-99[*]Alfa Romeo Milano 3.0L (87-89)[*]BMW 325i/is (2 & 4door) (92-95)[*]BMW M Coupe 98-99[*]BMW M3 95-99[*]BMW 328ci/i 1999[*]BMW Z3 2.8L 97-98[*]Ford Contour V-6 (non-SVT) -1995[*]Ford Mustang V6 1999+[*]Honda Prelude SH & non-SH (97-98)[*]Honda Prelude V-Tech[*]Honda S2000 2000[*]Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3L 16V[*]Nissan 300Z (Z32) 86-88[*]Nissan Maxima 89-94[*]Nissan Maxima 95-99 (A32[*]Nissan 300Z (Z32) 89-96[*]Porsche Boxter S 2000[*]Porsche 968 1995[*]Porsche 944S (4V) (87-88)[*]Toyota Supra 1998[*]Toyota Supra 95-97[*]Toyota Supra (86 1/2-87)[*]Volkswagen Corrado SLC[*]Volkswagen Golf GTI VR-6 -1995[*]Volkswagen Jetta VR-6 (94-96)

[list]

Little research has been done to make any determinations on how these cars would fit, but it's a start... about 12 of these cars are currently classified in ITS, but at pretty high weights...

Anyhow, it seems to me like an idea worth investigating...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[mlytle]

hi wayne!
lets not ignore the 4th and fifth place cars that were rx7's. the first of which turned in the third fastest race lap, about a half a second slower than the first place bmw.

the track record by a z car was only one tenth of a second slower than the winning bmw's time.

having 7 out of the top ten being bmw's only means there were a ton of bmw's entered. it appears the ultimate potential of the rx7 and z cars is in the same ball park as the bmw's. any gap between these cars seems to be a whole lot smaller than the gaps in the potential of the rest of the cars in the class. if any weight is to be added to the bmw, then the rx7 and z cars need to take a hit too to bring everyone down to mercedes and honda range....;-)

marshall

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Feel free to suggest more...

Don't forget the Porsche 928, 79-82. Has less hp than many on the list and doesn't have a lot of room for improvement as it is sort of stuck in time if the model years are limited. Also would suggest 82-84 (maybe 85) Ford Mustang 5.0L since it will fit in here just fine.

I always sort of wondered about the 968 and where it could fit in IT, this would be a perfect place. There are lots of these around for fairly cheap money and they are great cars.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!