A protest story.

[Renaultfool]

Knestis, I must take offence to the Renault comment. I probably have the only one running out here and I don't even know you and don't think that we run together, so I don't think that you were talking about me. Besides, have you ever tried to buy a "wink wink, nod nod" part for a Renault. You are lucky to find any part for a Renault. There is not even a "wink wink nod nod" Renault store that I am aware of. Yes, the Renault is competitive in C, with the largest engine in the class, well until the VW Bug, but hey, lets line um up and tear them down whenever. I'm ready. Bring your money.

[John Herman]

Bill, what would be gained. If he said, I'm sorry that I was found illegal, but I had no knowlege of the pistons in the engine, the responses would probably range from a)too bad, its your responsibility, b)man you got a raw deal, you should sue the engine builder, to c) yeah right, not only are you a cheater, but also a liar, you suck. Unfortunately its a situation he can't win on some bulletin board. He will need to re-earn his strips with those he races with. Hopefully he will.

[Bill Miller]

Renaultfool,

I think Kirk's comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as he used to race a Renault.

John,

You may be right. But owning up to it and taking his lumps, will probably go a long way towards getting his 'stripes' back. I'm still really bothered by Tom's recounting of the "catch me if you can" comment. I know that it's technically hearsay, but it's pretty disturbing, if it's true.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited October 20, 2004).]

[Jake]

Random thoughts:

1 - Consider that the engine was most likely purchased from competitor who wrecked their IT car and the "engine builder" may never have been talked to (or known)

2 - In my quest for someone to put some legal power into my MR2 - I have found many that want to sell me, say a cylinder head, for $2500-$3000. They say it's legal, but refuse to tell me what they did to it (that's our trade secrets, blah, blah).

3 - Don't assume the domed pistons are more $$$. From what I understand, domed hi-comp pistons were OEM on JDM 2nd gen D16 motors (or something like that - I'm quoting from my Honda-nerd friends).

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Renaultfool:
Knestis, I must take offence to the Renault comment. ... . I'm ready. Bring your money.

Relax, mon. It isn't always about you.



c.1986

I wasn't making a tongue-in-cheek comment, either. I was recounting actual stuff I've heard in the last 20 years.

K

EDIT - from http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/history.php




[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited October 20, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by almracing:
...... and to think we were passed by an illegal car begs the question; how would we have finished if everything was even?

Looking foward to the 2005 season.

Anthony R.
ITA #86 NER
Honda CRX Si

OK, guys, All IMHO here.........

Anthony, I was wondering when someone would mention that fact.

One of my issues with running improper parts that result in significantly enhanced performance is that it is a slap in the face to the entire class, and of course inderectly to the club in general.

The question then is, how many races was the car in this configuration. (I asked, the answer was "I didn't ask him that"), and how many guys would move up the results sheets?

(I know I would, and a lot of others as well)

The flipside question is: We know he's a good driver...what can he do in a legal car?

Two big questions we won't ever know.

Bill...My mind often thinks in reverse...as in, "If I were him what would I do?" Of course, it's tough to know unless you ARE him, and it depends on what REALLY happened.

But....if he DID have the engine built as he says, and the parts were in without his knowledge...then I would prepare an extremely apologetic statement, I would detail the reasons why it occured while admitting that there really is no truly acceptable reason, I would also look into having the results changed to reflect the actual situation, going back as many dates as needed. I think that would be most ethical thing to do.

(Besides....you know everybody is figuring the things have been in the car ever since his sudden drop of laptimes...you might as well just come clean and move on...the damage has been done)

Honestly, some guys would give thumbs up and it would be a good way to start anew, and some guys wouldn't. But some is better than none. But that's just me.




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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Jake:
Random thoughts:

3 - Don't assume the domed pistons are more $$$. From what I understand, domed hi-comp pistons were OEM on JDM 2nd gen D16 motors (or something like that - I'm quoting from my Honda-nerd friends).

I must have the same friends....

From a rotary guy trying to get a handle on the whole thing, isn't true that compression is the biggest bang for the buck?

Head work is $$$...... pistons are pennies, relatively, ft lbs to ft lbs, hp to hp.


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Jake you're right. Compression ratio is over rated for hp generation. Generally only expect a few hp (less than you can count on one hand for a small engine) for each CR point change.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:


c.1986

Hey... That looks like Portland... (re: a big levy, lots of lush greens... all shrouded in grey! )

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 21, 2004).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo:
Jake you're right. Compression ratio is over rated for hp generation. Generally only expect a few hp (less than you can count on one hand for a small engine) for each CR point change.

George,

Maybe yes, maybe no. Case in point, A1 VW Rabbit GTI vs. A2 Golf GTI. Both are 1.8 (same bore and stroke). The A1 is 8.5:1 and the A2 is 10:1. The A2 does benefit from a somewhat better intake manifold design, and a larger (I used to have the exact figures, but they're burried in my computer somewhere) throttle body. Both are CIS FI (A2 is CIS-E, and has knock sensor to retard the timing). Can't say for sure how much the intake and TB help, but you're talking about a difference of 90hp for the A1 to 103-105hp for the A2. That's on the order of a 14 - 17 percent increase. That's pretty significant if you ask me. Even if you attribute half of the hp difference to the delta CR, you're talking about ~5hp per point of compression.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[gran racing]

Don't think that Shane is / was the only person racing throughout the country that ran an illegal engine. That's BS. Of course I'm not saying it is right.

During the course of the past year of so, I have spoken with a few engine builders. During these conversations some have blatenly told me (without my asking) that they have build engines for people in IT that have a "little something extra" in it. And it will cost me less to build then a legal one! Each one of them told me that they have built them for other IT racers.

Now who knows if what they are saying is actually true or not. They took pride in saying people ran their illegal engines and the racers never ran into issues. Like Tom said, a catch me if you can attitude. My opinion is most of what they say is talk.

For a person that is pretty new to racing (like myself) begins to hear this often enough, may develop a perception that this is actually true. It may also be fueled by talks in the paddock about such and such person. Now its time for the person to build up their car. So they get a car that has a little something extra in it because they believe that is what other people are doing. Are they wrong? Of course! But in their mind they have justified it and feel that it is just an acceptable practice. In reality the people they thought were cheating actually are not. Again, it is about their perception.

This was not directed towards any region / person in particular or even SCCA IT. I've had this discussion with several people who race with other regions and other forms of racing. One of my neighbors is a crew chief for a roundy-round team. Now they have some clever cheats!

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Banzai240]

I'm pretty sure I do recall reading somewhere that it's typically on the order of about 10% per point of compression...

I can do a test tonight on my Dyno software to see what it says "should" result...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 21, 2004).]

[gran racing]

Jake MR2 briefly mentioned the door panels…(on both sides w/o NASCAR bars from what I recall). This was an obvious thing when we looked at the car. One that bothered me. I know what some may say; come on Dave, they are just missing door panels. But here is how I look at it. The GCR has a section that specifically talks about door panels and what can be done. In my opinion, this not just a silly washer fluid bottle, missing horn thing or other small thing.

For a front running car to have missing door panels surprised me. Especially if people may question the legality of the car. Why have something so simple and obviously illegal? What it did for me is raise several questions about the rest of the car.

It hits home for me because prior to racing the car when I used it in HPDEs removed my car’s door panels and threw them out. This caused much frustration for me later. I then needed to find .060” aluminum and fabricate two door panels.

Didn’t someone that placed well in the ARRC get DQed fairly recently for missing door panels?

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[benspeed]

Originally posted by lateapex911:

OK, guys, All IMHO here.........

The question then is, how many races was the car in this configuration. (I asked, the answer was "I didn't ask him that"), and how many guys would move up the results sheets?

prepare an extremely apologetic statement, I would detail the reasons why it occured while admitting that there really is no truly acceptable reason, I would also look into having the results changed to reflect the actual situation, going back as many dates as needed. I think that would be most ethical thing to do.

Jake - I totally agree with what you posted here. If Shane wants to run with the SCCA and earn back his stripes, resetting the results would be the best way to do it. Saying sorry always matters and an apology to the club should be made. That is what a gentlemen does - take responsibility, admit a mistake and ask forgiveness.

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BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
[email protected]
NNJR

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

George,

Maybe yes, maybe no. Case in point, A1 VW Rabbit GTI vs. A2 Golf GTI. Both are 1.8 (same bore and stroke). The A1 is 8.5:1 and the A2 is 10:1. The A2 does benefit from a somewhat better intake manifold design, and a larger (I used to have the exact figures, but they're burried in my computer somewhere) throttle body. Both are CIS FI (A2 is CIS-E, and has knock sensor to retard the timing). Can't say for sure how much the intake and TB help, but you're talking about a difference of 90hp for the A1 to 103-105hp for the A2. That's on the order of a 14 - 17 percent increase. That's pretty significant if you ask me. Even if you attribute half of the hp difference to the delta CR, you're talking about ~5hp per point of compression.

Perhaps Bill, but that would probably be absolute MAX. The problem is, even as you said, there are many thing that changed. You're only making assumptions. But, admittedly, I'm only making generalizations as well.

None the less, it would tend to suggest that a major increase in on-track performance is unlikely to be due to CR increase.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
I'm pretty sure I do recall reading somewhere that it's typically on the order of about 10% per point of compression...

Not a chance.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Ron Earp]

10% increase in output per point of compression? Is this what is estimated? Not a chance.

I have seen this investigated on a SB Ford and a point of compression was worth about 11 rear wheel hp, when going from around 8.5-9.5, all other factors remaining constant, on a motor that was making about 260 rear wheel hp to begin with. An old MM&FF article performed this by shaving the heads and putting them back on and it was done well and in a very scientific manner.

What is that, about 4%? And, still, 4% is quite a bit. Now, this was just a static compression increase and has nothing to do with dynamic compression or what might happen if cams were to be changed, which we can't do anyhow. So, if the motor made 100hp it'd make 104hp, not a huge difference.

Ron

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[Banzai240]

Yah... maybe it was more like 5%... I know it didn't seem like much for all the extra stresses on the rods, crank, etc...

DJ

[Dick Elliott]

I have seen many drag racers, and some road racers, rase the compresson ratio 2 or more points and go slower and have head gasket problems. WHY? Stock cam with stock overlap and no where for this new found pressure to go. To make more compresson work, you must change the cam. Plain and simple. I knew a IT racer who mill'd the head on his racer .100, ran race gas and went slower. Best bang for the bucks in an IT car is a light flywheel. Better than any other mod thats not visible. As a engine builder for the past 40 years, who builds what the customer ask for, reguardless of class, I can tell you a simple compresson change did not make that car a killer by its self. My two cents from a very old fart.

[Joe Craven]

The number I've seen for a point increase is more like 2% to 3%.