Poll re Rules of the Road

[bldn10]

The incident in the SSC race at The Runoffs has generated a lot of debate (see sccaforums.com)re the relative rights (to racing room) and duties (to avoid contact) of the overtaken and overtaking cars when passing in corners. The scenario was that the overtaking car had a good run on the overtaken car, the overtaken car "left the door open," and the overtaking car late braked on the inside and got at least his front wheel ahead of the other car's rear wheel, and the leader turned in w/ ensuing contact. As you all know, the GCR provides little guidance, and SOM and COA decisions are inconsistent.

The poll question is: Is there a point in a pass when the right to "the line" or the right not to have to yield shifts from the overtaken car to the overtaking car? I.e., "getting a wheel on," halfway alongside, getting a nose in front of, or completing the pass?

I have discussed this w/ a number of drivers and there are varying opinions, which is kind of scary when you think about it. We need to be on the same page and I think a clarification in the GCR may be in order.

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[racer_tim]

Just remember that it's the responsibility of BOTH drivers to avoid contact.

Racing is supposed to be a non-contact sport.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[spnkzss]

My "understanding" is bumper with door. I agree it is the duty of both drivers to avoid contact.

I find it interesting that this is brought up. I ended up in a situation at MARRS IX at Summit Point this past weekend. I got a good run out of 3 and came up on the inside going into 4. Before we entered 4 I was front bumper to front bumper on the inside. The other car came over and kept sqeezing me. I let up and started braking slightly (normally wide open through 4). Next thing I know he clips my drivers front with his passenger rear while I was 2 wheels off. He spun and rolled going into the turn and I somehow came out clear. He later told me that he knew I was there, but did not think I would pass him where I did and it was the "passers" responsibility to make a safe clear pass. BTW he was very civil about the whole thing, no harsh words said on either side and we considered it a "racing incident". After I showed him the in-car video he almost looked like he thought he shouldn't have done what he had.

Either way I consider a "nose in" to not quite be enough. You need to have quite a bit of your car in on him/her and have the line. When I say have the line I don't mean entry and exit, but mainly the apex. The passer needs to pay attention to what is going on since some drivers do not want to give an inch, but if you leave racing room, you have a bumper to the door and you have the line on the apex then you have the line and the passee needs to plan acordingly.

JMHO

Spanky
#73 ITC Honda Civic WDCR

[ITSRX7]

Here is how I look at it:

If a car overtaking me has a front wheel past the rear wheel of my car, I bet I can see him real good out the window. He, at that point has established his intent and position. I must be fully aware that if I turn down on him he may be there and I may get spun out. I would then squeeze him a little but take the 'outside' line leaving enough room for both cars. You then continue to race for the next corner.

I tend to err on the side of giving room - why? Because I don't want to get spun out. BAD things can happen when that happens. Slamming the door is a bold move that, although warrented in some cases, is risky unless you TRUST the driver behind you.

My rule of thumb is anything past "front tire at rear tire" has established enough position so that you should give some racing room.

All IMHO.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Geo]

First of all, I would not appreciate some rule being written for the GCR. All it would do is move the point that is grey area anyway.

As a practical matter I'd say it really depends. In a corner less than 45* I'd say both sides need to make room if there is room for 2 cars side by side.

If the corner is greater than 45* I personally believe it becomes a matter of who controls the turn-in. If the inside car is more than half way up on the outside car, IMHO the inside car controls the turn-in and thus the apex. The inside car, thus controlling the turn-in can turn in as late as he/she likes, thus depriving the outside car of the apex.

If the inside car is not half way up, the outside can actually make the turn-in and if the inside car does not yield it will hit the outside car and be at fault IMHO.

All of this does not mean you come storming up the inside of the track and take out someone who was at the outside taking a "normal" line. In this case the inside car did not control the turn-in.

In the end, both cars are responsible and that's part of racing. I personally, like Andy, tend to be a little more generous with room. This is supposed to be fun and repairing twisted cars is not fun. But don't take it that I'm a wimp. It's just that if something is in question, I'd rather bring the car home.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[whenry]

I have always felt that if I can get my front fender on the "hip" of the car being passed, the corner will be mine but depending on who the other car is, I will leave myself some margin to pull back if necessary.
I really think that this is part of the issue: if your pass is requiring ALL that you have to pull it off(ie 11/10ths driving), it is too ambitious or aggressive.

[jcmotorsports]

i think the most important thing here is using your head. i've been passed quite a few times and i have also passed cars. in a situation, every driver is going to feel that he/ she had the corner and it was the other driver's fault instead of using common sense and avoiding contact. i personally always try to avoid contact and tend to give up corners, but so what there is always the next corner. if you squeeze someone too much that could be the end of your race or worse. SO JUST USE YOUR HEAD AND KEEP IT CLEAN!
john costello

[Knestis]

It's a little bit of an overstatement, but nose of the passer less than 1/2 way up the length of the passee's car, the passer is obligated to yield when the passee gets to a sensible - if late - turn-in point. If the passer doesn't have enough in reserve to brake that little bit more to allow this to happen, it meets my personal definition of a "banzai." We should NOT be making passes that we can't back out of in club races.

This is partially because geometry pretty much demands that he turn in earlier than the guy on the outside, or run the heck into him.

If you get more than 1/2 a car inside of me and are going to make a typical turn-in, I'm going to say "touche" and let you have it. Either that or slow down a little more and drive around off-line, leaving you enough room on the inside, in hopes of getting you on the inside in the next turn - if there is one.

If you have used up all of your margin of error getting that nose poked way up in there, I'm going to hang out there for a tick and try to late-apex behind you as you overshoot, and try to "get you on the come-back."

The whole point here is that the person who is clever or sneaky should be rewarded with a successful pass. I want NOTHING to do with the guy who's simply foolhardy (or rich) enough to huck himself at any hole, and is literally counting on his victim running away for the pass to work without impact...

K

[Scooter]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Here is how I look at it:

If a car overtaking me has a front wheel past the rear wheel of my car, I bet I can see him real good out the window. ...

My rule of thumb is anything past "front tire at rear tire" has established enough position so that you should give some racing room.

This is basically how I look at it as well. If someone is in my blindspot, then they need to get out of the way when I turn. But if I can see them alongside me at all, then it's stupid to just cut them off.

And frankly, chances are that they've been sitting behind you trying to pass and they're going to get it done eventually. Don't be a d*ck. If/when the positions are reversed, you'll want them to do the same.

The best races I've had is when another car and I are passing each other back and forth, depending on where we're fast. Not when I'm sitting there blocking someone for half the race.

[Quickshoe]

My rule of thumb is that if I can't get to the "racing line" without making contact with the other guy than I don't have the right to go there...no matter our relative positions.

If the other guy can't get to the "racing line" without making contact with me. He doesn't own it either.

We must both share the corner...neither of us having the optimum line until we can get on that line without making contact. That is what racing side by side is all about.

Again, just my opinion. The ethics I adhere to while I am on the track.

[joeg]

Scooter says it best "...don't be a (choose your expletive)..."

If someone comes up on your rear end after a couple laps, he is probably faster; DON'T CHOP if he tries an inside pass.

[bldn10]

George says he doesn't want to change the rules but look at the disparate opinions we have just w/ these few posts. Here we have several drivers stating their "understanding" of how we have to race in the context of the existing rules. Saying that both cars have to avoid contact just doesn't work because more than likely both drivers have an "understanding" of when the other driver is going to yield, and they are going to drive assuming he will do so. The problem is that everyone does not have the same "understanding" - and that is where I think the rules need to give at least some guidance. Here we have George and Knestis saying that the overtaking car has to be at least halfway alongside but several others settling for a couple of feet less. Some I've discussed this with think you actually have to have a nose IN FRONT to take the corner. I think like Andy - if I have left the door open and the guy got a run on me and is coming alongside, he has earned the corner. I'll give it to him and try to position myself to take it away if his late braking causes him to drift wide. In the SSC scenario I described, the overtaken car spun and the overtaking car went on to win. But the Runoffs SOM stripped him of his National Championship because of that move. I agree w/ George that there will always be some gray area, but isn't reducing it from 10' down to 2-3' better?

[apr67]

If I am just up on your rear bumper or wheel, then I assume you don't know I'm there and back out near turn in.

Anything else, I feel I am entitiled to have my car on the pavement. I am not entitled to hit you. Conversly you are entitled to have your car on the pavement (racetrack) and you are not entitled to hit me.

I got hit at Homestead. I was passing in turn (4 I think), and I had a front wheel even with another miata's rear wheel. We banged wheels and both continued on. I got a dirty (blue paint) tire, he got a ripped bumper. I talked to him after the race and he made it clear that I could have been anywhere and he would have done the same thing.

[Geo]

Originally posted by bldn10:
George says he doesn't want to change the rules but look at the disparate opinions we have just w/ these few posts.

Originally posted by bldn10:
I agree w/ George that there will always be some gray area, but isn't reducing it from 10' down to 2-3' better?

I think there will always be disparate opinions. Making a rule will not reduce the size of the grey area, it will only change where it is placed. I also don't want passing rules to be so defined that it "legislates" the racing. There are other groups that do this. PCA and BMWCCA both race with a 13/13 rule and very strict rules regarding passing. I consider it somewhat less than competitive racing.

Lest you think I don't fully grasp what you're talking about, I'll tell you I was a victim of stupid rulings by the race director in a kart race. I was fully alongside someone at the turn-in and he stayed outside in a sweeper. He pinched me down to the point I put two tires in the grass and he kept coming until he touched and spun off. I was DQ'd. BAD call, but they occasionally happen. Legislating passing rules will not eliminate bad judgements on the part of drivers or officials.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[mlytle]

as a part time bmwcca racer, i must have missed the "strict rules on passing" in the rule book. ;-) the 13/13 rule is a strict rule to discourage contact, not passing. there are no special passing rules. same passing moves are allowed in bmwcca as scca, you are just supposed to think a little more about the consequences before you do it....

marshall

[m glassburner]

Just think a bit next time you attempt a
pass and it's iffy...a cut tire....hmmmmm
ponder that tire going down when you need
it most....I do!

[Knestis]

Originally posted by apr67:
... I talked to him after the race and he made it clear that I could have been anywhere and he would have done the same thing.

I'm going to resist the temptation to paint all SM drivers with the same brush but THAT is the guy I want nothing to do with.

K

[ddewhurst]

***In the SSC scenario I described, the overtaken car spun and the overtaking car went on to win. But the Runoffs SOM stripped him of his National Championship because of that move.***

I would like to add some to the above note. The SSC car that lost the race because of the above stated note IIRC on the 1st or 2nd lap whaled on the rear of the car ahead of him two times between T7 & T8. That ain't a place for the good ol boys to be bump drafting. Sitting on the hill watching.

Have Fun
David
CenDiv

[Bill Miller]

I like Kirk's scenario, and it's pretty much what I use. I'm not real crazy about how the rule is currently written, as I think it encourages banzai moves.

As far as this asshat goes,

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I talked to him after the race and he made it clear that I could have been anywhere and he would have done the same thing.</font>

I had an almost run-in w/ a driver w/ a similar attitude. It was the first qualifying session of the first race of the season at Summit Point. Was comming up to Turn 10, which for those of you who've never been to Summit Point, is the last turn before the 3000' long front straight. It's a very fast righthander, but some soft sand/dirt off driver's left, at track out.

Anyway, this other driver banzais me up the inside, approaching the turn, and moves over on me, so he can get to the outside, for a better turn-in. He did this when we were pretty much side by side. I was racing in ITB at the time, and Turn 10 is a breath of the throttle, turn in, and back on the gas. I had to jump on the brakes hard, or this guy would have driven me off the track. And this is in a qualifying session!!!!

When I spoke to the driver on the false grid for the next session, he said that if he would have turned in from mid-track, it would have screwed up both our lap times, and he didn't see the need for that. This guy as a rep as an arrogant blow-hard, and drives a tank of a car, so he figures he can get away w/ it.

Sorry for the rant.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[m glassburner]

These "people" don't realise it'll be their arse that goes into the wall or other hard object as well....my favorite saying...to finish first, first you must finish!!