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Thread: "Factory" oversized replacement Pistons...

  1. #21
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    I was going to stay out of this one, because it seemed pretty obvious and straightforward, but Stephen brings up a valid point (although I disagree with it).

    Here is exactly what the rule says:

    "Engines may be bored to a maximum of .040 inch over standard bore size. Factory oversize replacement pistons or their exact equivalent shall be used. Cast or forged equivalent pistons shall provide the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, ring thickness and spacing, pin height relationship, weight, and compression ratio as factory replacement oversize pistons. Piston rings are unrestricted.

    Stephen, your point appears to be that if there never was a factory oversize piston, then there can never be an "exact equivalent" within the aftermarket (how can you be "equal" to something that doesn't exist?). Read that way, you are absolutely correct. However, you cannot take that one sentence in a vacuum. For example, how can that one sentence be applicable if the car came with cast pistons and you decided to install forged? That's because the rules allow the mod of forged pistons, even though they are not the "exact equaivalent".

    When a modification is allowed, there are always implied modifications that go along with it. If you are allowed to overbore the engine, and balancing and blueprinting is allowed, there is no plausible and safe way to properly build an engine without appropriate oversize pistons. Since aftermarket pistons are allowed, I contend that aftermarket oversize pistons are also allowed, as long as the remaining features match the factory pistons.

    As an aside, if you guys are running .020" oversize pistons in a .040" overbore, you're giving up a crapload of power and longevity. You're much better off using a .020" overbore block and making those rings seal better. Beside, you're running a large risk of cracking pistons and rings and/or damaging the block.

    As to running longer (not wider) rings to make up a high piston-to-bore clearance, that's a horrible practice. By allowing that kind of p-t-b clearance your rings are not stabilized, will not seal to the piston properly, will not be adequately pressed into the bore, and will break much more easily. Any 'increased displacement' you get from doing this is more than overcome by decreased combustion chamber sealing and increased drag from chattering rings and pistons. If you're doing this you're much better off just not bothering to overbore the engine; you're simply pissing away time and money.

    As to the clearance/service limit question, when an engine is properly built, the desired piston-to-bore clearance is maintained. Pistons (overbore or not) are designed and built based on the nominal bore diameter, not the service limits. Thus, when you buy/build overbore pistons, they will be .040" larger than stock nominal value, and you'll hone the bore to each piston and grind the rings to the desired end gap. These resulting bore values will be well within the +/- service limits of the original, plus the allowable .040". Unless you're driving this car to work every day, and/or you're running crappy oil in the thing, it is unlikely you will ever wear the cylinder bores to the point that the value is greater than the outside limits. My NX2000 had 11,000 total miles on it after nearly a decade of Showroom Stock racing. With the noted exception of the hole on the front of the block, the cylinder bores were nearly factory value.



    [This message has been edited by grega (edited October 13, 2004).]

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by grega:
    ...With the noted exception of the hole on the front of the block...
    Hey...that's not legal in Showroom Stock.

    Cheater.


  3. #23
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    hey john
    i have a double whammy for you! i am a dentist and i race an rx7!!
    john costello
    its rx7#87

  4. #24
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    And if your motor is metric, you can't use .40 overbore because it's all done in millimeters.

    Load of crap.

  5. #25
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    <font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Cheater.</font>
    Drats, foiled again!!

    <font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">And if your motor is metric, you can't use .40 (sic) overbore because it's all done in millimeters.</font>
    1 millimeter is .0394 inches. Since metric pistons are typically sold as either 1/2 or 1mm overbore, I'd call it "close enough"; how about you?

  6. #26
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    Originally posted by apr67:
    And if your motor is metric, you can't use .40 overbore because it's all done in millimeters.

    Load of crap.
    Again...

    Doesn't common sense come into play anymore???


  7. #27
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    First of all I am going to thank all of you for saying this is legal, maybe someday I will get up the money to build an engine with these custom made pistons that I am sure someone will build for me but I will continue to tell you my reasoning why I still think it is illegal if you don't mind. Once this thread turns into ripping me apart I will be out of it. so far so good

    Originally posted by grega:
    Cast or forged equivalent pistons shall provide the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, ring thickness and spacing, pin height relationship, weight, and compression ratio as factory replacement oversize pistons. Piston rings are unrestricted.

    If you purchase an aftermarket .040 piston what weight are you compairing to? If no factory piston of this diameter exists can I just make the piston the same weight as the stock diameter or do I make it weigh more because it is larger? (This is one reason the rule in my opinion is flawed)


    Stephen, your point appears to be that if there never was a factory oversize piston, then there can never be an "exact equivalent" within the aftermarket (how can you be "equal" to something that doesn't exist?). Read that way, you are absolutely correct.
    Isn't that what it says? I thought that is what I read as well (Not trying to be a jerk just telling you what I see in the rule)


    For example, how can that one sentence be applicable if the car came with cast pistons and you decided to install forged? That's because the rules allow the mod of forged pistons, even though they are not the "exact equaivalent".
    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly in IT it says you can do certain things..... If it doesn't sya youcan than you can't. If the rule said you can make any piston you want as ong as it will fit in you .040 bore and it meets the following requirments: Cast or forged equivalent pistons shall provide the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, ring thickness and spacing, pin height relationship, weight, and compression ratio as factory replacement oversize pistons. Piston rings are unrestricted. then I would say .040 is allowed even if not a factory replacement.


    When a modification is allowed, there are always implied modifications that go along with it. If you are allowed to overbore the engine, and balancing and blueprinting is allowed, there is no plausible and safe way to properly build an engine without appropriate oversize pistons.

    Since aftermarket pistons are allowed, I contend that aftermarket oversize pistons are also allowed, as long as the remaining features match the factory pistons.


    see I read the rule that factory replacement pistons are allowed and aftermarket pistons are allowed as long as they are the same only to keep costs down. I see nothing that says I can go have JE build me .040 pistons that never existed before.


    As an aside, if you guys are running .020" oversize pistons in a .040" overbore, you're giving up a crapload of power and longevity.


    Oh no beleive me we are not doing this! we have factory 20+ year old pistons with newer rings on them and factory bore. I did hone them with a craftsman hone and a makita drill though my speed secrets are now getting out! (Actually this is what I did to the engine before I seized it up when I tried to vacume up the pond at LRP outside the left hander


    thanks for listening to my reasoning and my point of view. sorry if I don't respond as quickly as the rest of you. I don't have time to do this at work so it's every few days when I check my e-mail as well.
    Stephen

    PS I have a conversion chart somewhere that can convert the .040 to milimeters. I used to know exactly what is was but I forget. It is simple math I just don't rember the answer for you.

  8. #28
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    Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
    PS I have a conversion chart somewhere that can convert the .040 to milimeters. I used to know exactly what is was but I forget. It is simple math I just don't rember the answer for you.
    They got it for you. I know it was easy and I thought it was 1mm but I couldn't remember.

    Stephen

  9. #29
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    Originally posted by Banzai240:

    Doesn't common sense come into play anymore???
    Sarcasm (sär-kaz-em), n. 1. ironical taunt; a sneering or cutting remark.

    IT.com has, apparently, lost its sense of humor.

    I thought the metric thing was pretty funny.


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