Nov Fastrak out

[Ron Earp]

Being new I remember seeing the issue of weight being added to various cars. I remember the BMW well, and I think one other. Is this where this sort of rules change can happen? I looked at it but didn't see anything like that.

So folks can have cars moved around by requesting and then the board voting on it. What if a board member asks to have a car moved or something else done to it, do they vote? Seems that could get tricky as it could be the case someone would want a car in a lower class but is on the board, I suppose they abstain.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
The battery rule says similar not the same. ... Once again the ITC screws up and eventually someone will get protested for interpreting the rule.

It's amazing to me how much trouble educated adults have with figuring out what the most basic terms mean... For some reason, once they are placed in the GCR/ITCS, these words suddenly morph into something no one has ever recognized before...

Guess what people...??? Group 24 vs. Motorcycle battery... NOT SIMILIAR in size or weight... Group 26 vs. Group 24... SIMILIAR... It's not that hard to figure out. If you want to run the Motorcycle battery, be my guest, but I'm guessing your competition won't have too much trouble figuring out what "similiar" means, and they damn well SHOULD protest you.

If you have a problem with the way the rule is written, guess what... it's been published in Fastrack for several months, pending BoD approval. You've all had months to review this and think about it... Rather than take the "bitch first, ask questions later" approach, how about focusing your energy toward something production, like typing a note to the CRB and "voicing" your concerns.


Oh, and... what George said...

Originally posted by Geo:
Stephen, please get your facts straight.

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by rlearp:
So folks can have cars moved around by requesting and then the board voting on it. What if a board member asks to have a car moved or something else done to it, do they vote? Seems that could get tricky as it could be the case someone would want a car in a lower class but is on the board, I suppose they abstain.

I can explain this better in person...

Feel free to e-mail me privately and I'll send you a number where you can reach me:

Banzai240 "AT" yahoo "dot" com



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[planet6racing]

Well, it's brought up in the 15th post in this thread, but I'll repeat it here because Darin and Geo were being nice.

The battery issue was brought up by the CRB, not the ITAC. The CRB took it to the BOD. The BOD approved it after waiting a period of time for member comment. THE ITAC HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BEING BROUGHT UP AND VOTED ON!!!

OK, I feel better now.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
OK, I feel better now.

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Now it's time to work on allowing all classes to run 7" wide wheels.

Why ?

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by JohnRW:

Why ?

Why not John? As ITA cars get moved to ITB, it seems silly that they have to go buy 8, 12, 16, ??? new wheels. Do you think that having 7" wheels in ITB or ITC would be a performance advantage? I doubt it would be, and I doubt that you could shove more than about a 225 under most of the ITB/C fenders. Not to mention that wider tires aren't necessarily faster, after a certain point.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Why not John? As ITA cars get moved to ITB, it seems silly that they have to go buy 8, 12, 16, ??? new wheels. Do you think that having 7" wheels in ITB or ITC would be a performance advantage? I doubt it would be, and I doubt that you could shove more than about a 225 under most of the ITB/C fenders. Not to mention that wider tires aren't necessarily faster, after a certain point.

Yeah but..........

Don't you think that, as an ITB guy, it kinda sucks to have my world upended by new guys coming in, and now you want me to buy all new wheels so they don't have to?????

Uhhhh...... no dice! The class is the majority. The newcomers the minority. Stupid to require the majority to bend over, open thier wallets for the minority.

Listen, if they move me to B, and the weight is appropriate, I will gladly buy new wheels. But I would be embarrassed if the rest of the class had to instead!

(Now if it comes to pass that 6x13, 14 or 15 inch wheels become unavailble, but 7" versions ARE, then it's another story...but that aint happening for quite a while.)



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Jake,

Nobody would have to buy 7" wheels. And I don't really see it as any difference than allowing everyone to run at least 15" wheels.

Does anybody have any hard data (same car, same tire, but 6" vs. 7" wheels, or even wider version of the same tire) that shows just how much (if any) a performance advantage the wider wheels are?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[dyoungre]

IMHO, I don't think you could get any hard data to show that 7" is better than 6", if the same tire that you fit under your fender can be forced onto the smaller rim. I believe it is more subjective, effecting turn in and confidence. A Ford/Cart/F1 chassis engr told me the following rule of thumb: you want the contact patch to equal the rim width. Since we are all beyond that, I assume more is worse: more sidewall roll, more instability, etc. Hard data is going to be tough (impossible) to come by. Rule of thumb? Pontiac is right: Wider is better.

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[lateapex911]

Good point Dave, but I'm not entirely sure the guys reference relates to our world of "street radials"...

We did an experiment a few years back in the days of autocrossing. Same car, two drivers, same wheels, same tires, sets of different tire sizes. We swapped back and forth, adjusting pressures and tweaking for each set.

Finally, at the end of the day, both divers were a half second faster on the smaller tire with the higher sidewall! (175/70/13, vs 185/60/13) even though the "larger" tire was lower and should have provided better CG as well as better gearing.

Even at the Solo II Nationals, the 175 tire was on all the front runners.

We surmised (and informal chalk tests helped confirm it) that the wheel, (max allowable at 5.5") was just not wide enough to "present" the larger tire with its shorter sidewall to the pavement as well as the smaller taller tire. We think the smaller tire was more consistant in its contact patch.

So....even on the same tire, better performance can be had with a wider wheel, if the tire in question isn't being fully utilized. And many racers find the larger size the way to go regardless for better heat sinking, etc.

Or, in other words...you don't think those barges called Volovs would jump at the chance to run wider rims??

Leave well enough alone...

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gran racing]

Believe me, the majority of people that are moving to B are not too upset with buying 6" rims.

It would be totally unfair to make people that are not gaining by the move be penalized by the deal. Even if there is no hard proof that 7" wide rims make a significant advantage, it is an advantage none-the-less (or at least a perceived advantage).

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Dave Gran
NER #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
NOW ITB!!!

[924Guy]

I'm moving to ITB. I'm ditching my 15x7's for 15x6's. I'm happy to be going somewhere I might actually get to play with others. I have considered running 6's anyway, even before the reclassification. I'm not worried about slowing down any; even if I do lose a half-second, I'll be in the midst of some competition and the overall racing experience will improve. Just my $0.02.

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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[JohnRW]

How would allowing wider rims make the racing better ?

Yes, Volvo guys would love to be able to stuff their 225 rubber on a 7" rim, but don't we already know that the Volvos are pretty damn quick already ? VW guys can't get a 225 on their cars and be legal, and does the advantage of a 205 on a 7" rim equal that of a 225 on a 7" rim ? I think not.

Current racers in the B and C are running 6" (or less) wheels. Why put them at a financial...and maybe competitive...disadvantage by allowing 7" rims. Who benefits ? If new cars drop into the class that came stock with 7" wheels (pls cite examples, if there are any), then that can be addressed (going forward) with weights.

Bigger does not always equal better. Ill considered idea.

Next ?

[mustanghammer]

Does anybody have any hard data (same car, same tire, but 6" vs. 7" wheels, or even wider version of the same tire) that shows just how much (if any) a performance advantage the wider wheels are?

********************

I don't have hard data but I have conducted this "test" a number of times. I ran a C Prepared Solo II Mustang for 13 years. During that time the rules allowed us to move from 10" wide wheel to a 12" wide wheel. During the switch I was running a 25x12x16 Goodyear racing tire on first a 10" wide wheel and then later a 12" wide wheel. Same car, same tire - bigger wheel. Guess which one was faster? The wider wheel.

This year I purchased 8 of the 175/60x13 Kumho Ecsta's that the Tire Rack was blowing out in the spring. First I ran them on Stock 5.5" wheels and then I ran them on 7" wide wheels. I picked up 1.5 seconds using the 7" wheel - same track - same car - same weather.

If you pay any attention to the Solo II CSP/DSP/FSP cars you will see cars running the 225 tires that we run on 7" wheels on 8-9" wide wheels. They do this because it makes them faster.





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Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

[dyoungre]

I don't think I made my point clearly, as I was agreeing with you - that a wider wheel would be better; when I said 'more is worse', I meant that more overhang is worse, and since we are stuffing the biggest tire under the fender that we can get, then the bigger the rim, the better. My point was just that I didn't think hard data would necessarily be found - which y'all proved me wrong. That being said, ITB should NOT change to 7 inch rims. Let the newcomers to the class change, especially since downsizing should reduce the chance of 'creating an overdog situation'.

BTW, Jake, if it improves my friends' credibility....he built a mid engine 911...That's right, a 'P' car ...

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If new cars drop into the class that came stock with 7\" wheels (pls cite examples, if there are any), then that can be addressed (going forward) with weights.</font>

This has already happened w/ the New Beetle that was classed in ITC. Smallest OEM wheel was 6.5". I see this as just the first of many cases where new cars are going to be classed in ITB and ITC, and will not be able to run stock wheels. Now, I know someone is going to jump in and say that there are other cars out there that can't run stock wheels because they're too big. IMHO, this is silly. The car should be able to run w/ the wheels that came on the car, from the factory.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[JohnRW]

That was my point, although it may not have been clear enough. New cars entering those classes (B&C) should be allowed to run their stock wheel widths. If a new cars looks like an overdog due to big wheels (and the # of cases will likely be small), then trim it back with weight at initial classification.

Rabbits, Golfs, Escorts, 02's, 142's etc. have no business running on 7" wheels.

[Geo]

Originally posted by JohnRW:
That was my point, although it may not have been clear enough. New cars entering those classes (B&C) should be allowed to run their stock wheel widths.

Should I be able to run the 8" Fuchs that came on my 944? Should the E46 be able to run the 8" sport package wheels?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[JohnRW]

Neither of those is an ITB or ITC car. Your point ?