ITAC Membership

[grjones1]

Can anyone tell me how members of the ITAC are chosen?
GRJ

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grjones1:
Can anyone tell me how members of the ITAC are chosen?
GRJ

I think I have a document on my work computer that discusses how the members are choosen... I'll try to find it and post it if I can...

Basically, I believe it's up to the CRB to make the final decision, with approval from the BoD. I was called by the then ITAC chairman, Rick Pocock, and, after a lengthy discussion and submission of a resume, I was asked to join the committee. There was some concern on the part of some CRB members who knew that I was fairly outspoken and critical of actions the CRB had taken in the past, but I've since learned to be patient and work within the system, convincing people with information, data, and facts when we have them, rather than rediculous 400 post rants...

The ITAC is made up of some VERY good people, who have a varying range of opinions and experiences. We are geographically diverse, which helps lend to the nationwide perspective of issues (for instance... out here... the 240Z is THE car to have in ITS... with the 944 and RX-7 right there as well... haven't had a BMW touch one yet at Portland or Seattle...)

NO one is going to make decisions that make everyone happy all the time, so we are ready and willing to take the critisism that some of you feel the need to dish out. We are also willing to fix our mistakes, should we make them. You might want to actually wait until something prooves that a mistake has been made, however, before you start calling for anyones head... Right now, some of you only THINK that we've made a mistake with this car (Beetle)... Only time will tell if we really have...

Anyhow, I'm not sure we are taking on more members at this point (we already have 9 at this point), but the process begins with the submittal of a racing resume and some background information...


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited August 11, 2004).]

[Bill Miller]

I think I have a document on my work computer that discusses how the members are choosen... I'll try to find it and post it if I can...

He Darin, maybe you could find that information that you have about VW motors, while you're at it!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Banzai240:

but I've since learned to be patient and work within the system, convincing people with information, data, and facts when we have them, rather than rediculous 400 post rants...

Darin,
This is a terribly defensive answer to a very simple question. But if you are going to refer to a series of questions and rebuttals from very concerned club members and participants, a "ridiculous 400 post rant", maybe we should consider asking for people who may be in closer touch with the concerns of the whole IT community. I tried to step back from my initial posture (I admitted I was too angry when I first posted, but it sure got your attention), and I tried to carry on a sensible discussion among much ridicule, and I view answers, like " I love dealing with minutiae" when asked about top-end, as pretty much lacking patience. Seems like when the questions get tough you guys resort to lambast and "we'll just have to wait and see" answers , rather than admitting that perhaps further study is warranted.
GRJ

BTW, I'm not so unaware that I would ever consider myself capable of membership on the ITAC, but now that you mention it, maybe some current members are in my league.



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 12, 2004).]

[Geo]

GR, regarding being in touch, I think the current ITAC has done more in the last year than any ITAC in recent memory. At least half of us post here regularly. I know a number of others (if not all) are lurkers. If nothing else, despite things sometimes getting a little out of hand here, if you are honest with yourself, you have to give it to us that we work hard to stay in touch.

That said, this forum is but a small portion of the IT community and we keep in touch outside it as well.

As for tone and patience and being able to "take the heat...." I'll say this. We take plenty of heat. If we couldn't, it would be really easy to just stop posting here. But we come back every day. We field the tough questions. We take the occasional shot, some earned, some not. But we keep coming back. We take the heat. Sometimes our tone and patience are not at their best. We're human. We have lives outside this forum, and outside IT. Forgive us. Don't forgive us. I know I can speak for all of us here. We keep coming back.

[edit] spelling
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 12, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grjones1:
But if you are going to refer to a series of questions and rebuttals from very concerned club members and participants, a "ridiculous 400 post rant", maybe we should consider asking for people who may be in closer touch with the concerns of the whole IT community

If you consider this forum representing the "concerns of the whole IT community", then you need to get out more often. I can tell you from personal experience, and in meeting with SCCA members who simply lurk here, that the opinions expressed here are not necessarily shared by those who choose not to post... What you have here usually is a good sample of the extremes of any situation. I'm not about to base any decisions I make solely on what gets posted here, becuase all it takes is one person with a lot of time to post to make it seem like his/her opinion is THE opinion...

Also, I wasn't referring directly to your VW Beetle posts when I mentioned the "rediculous 400 post rants"... Those who know of my participation over the last 4 years know that I have been known to get these types of posts started myself, and that is the experience on which I was drawing with that statement... That being said, you can't tell me that the Beetle-in-ITC thread hasn't degraded into a bunch of non-sense, at least as far as the topic is concerned...

Originally posted by grjones1:

Seems like when the questions get tough you guys resort to lambast and "we'll just have to wait and see" answers , rather than admitting that perhaps further study is warranted.

That's a crock... The only study that's left to do is see how the car performs... All the information we have available, including that which you have provided, hasn't shown any concrete evidence that any mistake/misclassification has taken place. What has been shown is that the car would be a guaranteed DOG in ITB... It has yet to show that it's an overdog in ITC... Only some cars on the track are going to be able to provide us with that "further study"...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited August 12, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by Geo:
We keep coming back.

...and in the interest of more 'full disclosure', I have spoken with Al Bell on the phone recently. Although we agree that we come down on both sides of the fence on the NB/ITC issue, we also agree that our posts are sometimes taken in ways that were not meant and there are no hard feelings on either side.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 12, 2004).]

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
GR, regarding being in touch, I think the current ITAC has done more in the last year than any ITAC in recent memory. At least half of us post here regularly. I know a number of others (if not all) are lurkers. If nothing else, despite things sometimes getting a little out of hand here, if you are honest with yourself, you have to give it to us that we work hard to stay in touch.

I'll concede that you are more accesible than others have been in years past.
GRJ
__________________________________________

Forgive us. Don't forgive us. I know I can speak for all of us here. We keep coming back.
[edit] spelling

I can forgive and hope for the same.
GRJ

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
That's a crock... The only study that's left to do is see how the car performs... All the information we have available, including that which you have provided, hasn't shown any concrete evidence that any mistake/misclassification has taken place. What has been shown is that the car would be a guaranteed DOG in ITB... It has yet to show that it's an overdog in ITC... Only some cars on the track are going to be able to provide us with that "further study"...

___________________________________________
Your own source, Eli, said he thought the car could be gotten to B weight (the reason you all posted for it not being competitive in B.

GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 12, 2004).]

[grjones1]

Also, I wasn't referring directly to your VW Beetle posts when I mentioned the "rediculous 400 post rants"... Those who know of my participation over the last 4 years know that I have been known to get these types of posts started myself, and that is the experience on which I was drawing with that statement... That being said, you can't tell me that the Beetle-in-ITC thread hasn't degraded into a bunch of non-sense, at least as far as the topic is concerned...
[/B]

Interspersed with the "nonsense" were some valid arguments that were treated as nonsense. That's the rub.
GRJ
But we're not going to settle this I see that. I'll just race my Fiesta 'til "the wheels fall off" or I'm lapped by that NB; but I'm glad you and Al remain on good terms.




[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 12, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by grjones1:
Your own source, Eli, said he thought the car could be gotten to B weight (the reason you all posted for it not being competitive in B.

GRJ
[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 12, 2004).]

Eli is my engine-power source. He has not tried to take a NB to 2250ish from 2750. He also thought ITA or ITB at first glance. Then listening to the thought process, digesting the factors and considering the weight, he said he also thought it was a dog in ITC.

We have 9 talented members on the ITAC and we consider a ton of factors when doing our job. We have received tons of positive feedback, both on this board and off.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[grjones1]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Eli is my engine-power source. He has not tried to take a NB to 2250ish from 2750. He also thought ITA or ITB at first glance. Then listening to the thought process, digesting the factors and considering the weight, he said he also thought it was a dog in ITC.

We have 9 talented members on the ITAC and we consider a ton of factors when doing our job. We have received tons of positive feedback, both on this board and off.

AB

OK, Andy, I hope I'm wrong.
GRJ

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">GR, regarding being in touch, I think the current ITAC has done more in the last year than any ITAC in recent memory. At least half of us post here regularly.</font>

C'mon now George! Andy just said that there are 9 members of the ITAC. The only ones I see posting 'regularly', are you, Andy, and Darin. And don't sprain your arm patting yourself on the back!

Still waiting for that engine info Darin!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[OTLimit]

And the only reason Chris doesn't is because he spends more time working on his cars then in front of a computer, and doesn't have access to a computer at work.

For what it's worth, he is fully behind the NB being in ITC (and doesn't think it will be an overdog by any extent), was sooo excited to tell people about it. And it wasn't because it was a VW, it was because it was a NEWER car than what is currently there.

Can we just let the subject of the NB drop now?

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
C'mon now George! Andy just said that there are 9 members of the ITAC. The only ones I see posting 'regularly', are you, Andy, and Darin.

What about Chris? He doesn't post as much, but Darin, Andy and I usually beat him to it. Lee comes and goes a bit more, but he certainly doesn't just drop in for a single issue and leave.

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
And don't sprain your arm patting yourself on the back!

Well gee Bill, when you put it that way, I'm surprised your knee hasn't gone out from kicking us in the ass.

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Still waiting for that engine info Darin!

Imagine that. You expect the chair of the ITAC to put your personal request ahead of everything else for personal service. And you aren't even an IT racer. I'm not trying to slam you Bill, but step back and look at a bit bigger picture.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

George,

Darin was the one that shot his mouth off about having said information, I've just asked him (repeatedly) to produce it. You see, it's usually a good idea to have supporting data/evidence to back up your claims (especially if you claim to have said evidence).

And since this request wasn't directed at you, unless you also have said information, and can produce it, I suggest that you stay the hell out of it! Darin's a big boy, and can speak for himself. I'm pretty sure he doesn't need you to do it for him

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
You see, it's usually a good idea to have supporting data/evidence to back up your claims (especially if you claim to have said evidence).

Hey Bill... You are right... I had e-mails with said information, and I thought I'd saved them... My Bad... However, If having Chris Albin on the ITAC isn't evidence enough that we have an idea of what a VW is capable of, as well as having guys like Mark Coffin to contact if need be (and I have in the past), then I just don't know what to tell you...

Using the numbers you gave us previously, even if the 1.6L is ONLY making 100hp in IT trim, it's just about right at the weight it needs to be for ITC to put it on par with the 510... and since most of us know that the VW is quite capable against the 510, well... I'm willing to make some assumptions about what it's REALLY making under the hood...

You guys wanted us to come up with a standardized method for classifying cars, and we've done that... but sometimes, you still have to apply some common sense to get the numbers to work out correctly. Assuming a 20% increase for IT prep makes the 510 work out to be precisely at it's ITC weight. Not coincidently, that number also works out to dyno numbers we were given for a well prepped ITC L-16... You've given us numbers that indicate a 35% increase for VW power, which still brings it in at about 80lbs lighter than it's classified ITC weight. Other than you perhaps, how many people here REALLY believe the ITC VW needs to LOSE 100lbs to compete with a 510?

This is just one of the problems with using stock HP numbers, which, as someone pointed out in the other thread, could be Net, Gross, or otherwise adjusted for insurance purposes, etc... At some point, we have to rely on individuals who we believe we can trust to give us real world information (as many of you have done concerning the MR-2, which I happen to STILL belive works out to an ITB car with a little more weight...)

That's the best I can do on this for now, so hopefully you'll be satisfied with this answer...

Now, back on topic... I happened to notice tonight in the latest SportsCar (September Fastrack) that there is a short explanation concerning how AC members are selected and an open invitation for members interested to submit their resumes. If you are interested, I'd suggest you read the memo and follow the directions to submit your resume to the CRB...




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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Bill Miller]

Hey Bill... You are right... I had e-mails with said information, and I thought I'd saved them... My Bad... However, If having Chris Albin on the ITAC isn't evidence enough that we have an idea of what a VW is capable of, as well as having guys like Mark Coffin to contact if need be (and I have in the past), then I just don't know what to tell you...

Using the numbers you gave us previously, even if the 1.6L is ONLY making 100hp in IT trim, it's just about right at the weight it needs to be for ITC to put it on par with the 510... and since most of us know that the VW is quite capable against the 510, well... I'm willing to make some assumptions about what it's REALLY making under the hood...

Well Darin, that's how I thought this was going to go. And while I have a lot of respect for both Chris and Mark, you're the one that said you had info from top VW engine builders and that you KNEW what those motors made. You said that the stock hp numbers were false. It's clear now that you only assumed this, based on how well the motors responded to IT prep, and that you were using the wrong stock hp number (71 vs. 75). You do this a lot Darin, you state things as facts that are really just your opinions.

You guys wanted us to come up with a standardized method for classifying cars, and we've done that... but sometimes, you still have to apply some common sense to get the numbers to work out correctly. Assuming a 20% increase for IT prep makes the 510 work out to be precisely at it's ITC weight. Not coincidently, that number also works out to dyno numbers we were given for a well prepped ITC L-16... You've given us numbers that indicate a 35% increase for VW power, which still brings it in at about 80lbs lighter than it's classified ITC weight. Other than you perhaps, how many people here REALLY believe the ITC VW needs to LOSE 100lbs to compete with a 510?

Actually, it was <33%, at best, per the numbers Dick Shine provided. And just where the hell did you get the idea that I felt that an ITC VW needed to lose anything to compete w/ a 510? I've never had any issue w/ the ITC VWs vs. the 510 (or any other ITC car for that matter). Show me where I said that, and I'll apologize in front of the entire board.

This is just one of the problems with using stock HP numbers, which, as someone pointed out in the other thread, could be Net, Gross, or otherwise adjusted for insurance purposes, etc... At some point, we have to rely on individuals who we believe we can trust to give us real world information (as many of you have done concerning the MR-2, which I happen to STILL belive works out to an ITB car with a little more weight...)

That's the best I can do on this for now, so hopefully you'll be satisfied with this answer...

And no, I'm not satisfied w/ your answer, because it never really addressed my original question, which was about the Rabbit GTI 1.8 . I asked you what the weight would be in both ITB and ITC, based on your 'standardized method'. Somebody else also asked for the weight of the 1.8 8v Scirocco.

When I asked for the 1.7 VWs to be moved to ITC, I also asked for the 1.8 A1 8v cars to be moved as well (as did others). The FasTrack response was that the cars were 'too fast'. Yet only 2-3 months later, the ITAC is recommending that the 1.7 cars be moved to ITC. Either the initial request didn't get due consideration, or something changed in those couple of months. Maybe you were wrong about the 1.8 8v A1 cars as well.

So, to summerize, I would like to know what the weight on the 1.8 8v Rabbit GTI would be in both ITB and ITC, based on your 'standardized method'. You've pretty much told me that you don't have any hard evidence to support your earlier claims.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[1stGenBoy]

I look at and monitor this site several times a day. I may not post a lot but,i'm here lurking and thinking about my answers to the letters and requests that are sent in for us to review.

Bob Clark
ITAC member
#76 ITA Cen-Div

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
And no, I'm not satisfied w/ your answer,.....

[Light hearted mode ON]

Bill, if Britney Sprears (or substitute your personal fave hottie) came to your house, and followed your instructions to the T doing whatever you wanted, you STILL wouldn't be satisfied.....


[light hearted mode OFF]


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited August 13, 2004).]