PORSCHE 944

[wpspeedracer]

Contact Jon Milledge "Mr 944" in the USA. He's made a living off building, developing, tweaking 944 race cars for many years.
http://www.jmengines.com/




My S motor that I have been developing over the past 15 months is a colaboration of Redbone Garage (recently placed third overall in the LeMans Historic last month with a 911 they built), Jim Higgs, whom is the engine builder for Alex Job Racing, and lots of Dyno time and we are finally aproaching (legally) 200 hp at the rear wheels. A Bimmer World 325 can easily get 240 rwhp and both a 944 S and a 325 race weight is 2850 lbs........Find me (us) 40 more hp and 944's (S) can then compete on equal ground.

Mark
944 S

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited August 19, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by wpspeedracer:
...and we are finally aproaching (legally) 200 hp at the rear wheels. A Bimmer World 325 can easily get 240 rwhp and both a 944 S and a 325 race weight is 2850 lbs........Find me (us) 40 more hp and 944's (S) can then compete on equal ground.

Mark
944 S

Well... I doubt that Bimmerworld is "easily" getting 240rwhp... I'm pretty sure they are working as hard as anyone else would. Just because they've achieved it, that doesn't mean it was "easy"... I'd also like to see proof that this is the case...

And, to paraphrase Kirk... "how do you know they are legal"?? Has anyone every really looked into these cars? Are there any other E36s around the country that are tearing up the tracks like these cars? We don't have any around here, so I personally wouldn't know...

If the numbers you quote are accurate, and assuming a 15% driveline loss, I come up with about 230hp at the flywheel... If this is correct, then, by my calculations, without anything added for vehicle specific specs, the weight for the 944S is exactly right... Should be a good match for the 240Z, RX-7, etc... I applaud your efforts for at least seeing what you can do...

Hopefully you guys are getting the message here... If PCAs pass, then the CRB will have the tools to bring any overdogs back in line... Call your local Area Director and urge them to give their support to this rule change.

If one day all the cars in a class were actually classified using the same process (or, in other words, everyone had about the same wt/pwr ratios, with "adders" for brakes and other vehicle specific specs, etc), I wonder if the end result would change???


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited August 19, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited August 19, 2004).]

[planet6racing]

Originally posted by Banzai240:

If one day all the cars in a class were actually classified using the same process (or, in other words, everyone had about the same wt/pwr ratios, with "adders" for brakes and other vehicle specific specs, etc), I wonder if the end result would change???

Oh, Oh! I know! I know!

The person who just put there car on the dyno has a switch on the PCM that retards fuel/turbo/rpm/spark/vtec/whatever and is giving a false HP output.

Hmm, oh wait, that's right, that's what I've read some of the NASA people saying...

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Tom Donnelly]

Darin,

I guess what I was trying to relate was not so much that the ITAC members take into account the differences in tracks and regions. I suppose I went the long way around the barn to illustrate just how much of an overdog the BMW is in my opinion. An opinion was offered on another thread that some of the current BMW owner/drivers are 'holding back' on just how far they could go. I am of the same opinion, except that it is more bugetary 'holding back' than otherwise. I know of more than one 325 that ran 1:42's at Road Atlanta with junkyard motors (no blueprinting) and with the non-vanos head. (no variable cam timing and little or no computer mods). There is a certain orange BMW with a very fast, competent and honest driver who could run 1:39's or 1:38's at this or next years ARRC. These are EP times. He's already beaten the current lap records at VIR and RA this year in a not fully developed car. Since you post and other ITAC members lurk, I just want to add my response.

I really am a 944 fan and have repaired and driven them on the street for almost 20 years. I run a 240z and it is not much fun passing a 944 like its an ITB car. Its downright depressing.

Tom

And for what its worth Rebello and Sunbelt seem to get different results from a dyno for the same motor. Not casting apersions, just pointing this out.

[JeffYoung]

For what it is worth, I have a mid to back of the pack S car, a 170 hp TR8. At 2560 (and I can make minimum), I've never had a problem running down a 944 (not an S) on the straights.

Jeff

[Tom Donnelly]

I'd like to add that David Luney and his 924
did pass me at CMP.

But, other than that, all those who've passed a 944, please raise your hands!!

(I don't know how to do smileys)

And, all those that have passed a BMW, please raise your hands.

(still don't know how to do smileys)

Tom

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
I run a 240z and it is not much fun passing a 944 like its an ITB car. Its downright depressing.

Tom

That's interesting, because we have a couple out here that, while not quite as fast as the 240Z in the straights, seem to hold their own as far as lap times go...

Oh, and for what it's worth, I DO believe that the 944 (not "S"] is a pig from a weight standpoint... I think it's classified a bit too heavy... I think it's about 100lbs overweight, based on it's advertised output (which, depending on who you talk to is between 140 and 157hp...). But this is just my sole opinion. I'm sure the ITAC will discuss such matters more as we move forward with our analysis of IT classifications...

Guess the other question that comes to mind concerning the 944 is IS it possible to get it below 2750lbs???

Anyone care to volunteer some real Dyno numbers for a well prepped version of this car?

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited August 19, 2004).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Oh, and for what it's worth, I DO believe that the 944 (not "S"] is a pig from a weight standpoint... I think it's classified a bit too heavy... I think it's about 100lbs overweight, based on it's advertised output (which, depending on who you talk to is between 140 and 157hp...). But this is just my sole opinion.

Not just your opinion.

Actually, the early 944 came with 143 bhp. The late 944 came with 157 bhp. For those with a 944 who want to know the differences, the JME "ITS Organizer" is worth the $100.

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Guess the other question that comes to mind concerning the 944 is IS it possible to get it below 2750lbs???

Not only that, it can get below the legal 2715 lbs. While my car isn't finished, those with finished cars have indicated not only is it easy to make weight, but what's hard is to find creative, yet legal, ways of adding weight to reach minimum weight.

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Anyone care to volunteer some real Dyno numbers for a well prepped version of this car?

JME clearly states on his web site that 183 bhp (or 185 depending upon the page) is possible with a fully legal IT engine. That said, I don't have proof, and I've yet to come across making anywhere near that much hp with a 2.5 8v NA 944 engine, IT legal or not.

[edit to fix formatting]
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 19, 2004).]

[wpspeedracer]

As far as weight goes, my first car was an 83' 944 and I got it down to 2400 lbs. the up side was I could put weight where I needed to put it, the down was when I ran PCA club races, I was way past modified stock so you get stuck in GT4S and when Kevin Buckler passes you on the straights doing 180+ your ears disentegrate.

As far as getting more hp on a normal 944....put in a 2.7 crank from an 89' and add the add'l 150 lbs. to meet 89' weight. Now you get TORQUE with the 2.7l motor.

Mark
944 S

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited August 19, 2004).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by wpspeedracer:
As far as getting more hp on a normal 944....put in a 2.7 crank from an 89' and add the add'l 150 lbs. to meet 89' weight. Now you get TORQUE with the 2.7l motor.

That of course would be highly illegal since you are not allowed to simply choose the best parts. You must take components as a whole. And of course, you cannot create a model, so unless you have an 89 to begin with, it simply is not legal.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
That's interesting, because we have a couple out here that, while not quite as fast as the 240Z in the straights, seem to hold their own as far as lap times go...

And to paraphrase you paraphrasing me, how do you know they are legal? Are any of them Terry Flanagan's "color of money" car?

(nudge, nudge, wink, wink)

K

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
And to paraphrase you paraphrasing me, how do you know they are legal?
(nudge, nudge, wink, wink)

K

Fair question!

What did we just learn here... That none of us really know anything! ... errr, except that we don't know... one way or the other...





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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Tom Donnelly]

You know, I just realized that I should be trying to improve my own position, not help out Porsches.

Along those lines, I think the 240z should be allowed some breaks just because of its age. (ie safety) No computers means that we need RR shocks to balance things out. And better brakes. And allowances to change the rear suspension geometry (for safety's sake). Everybody else has 5-speeds, why can't we?
A weight break however would make it hard to keep the car in one piece and would therefore be unsafe.

And you'd open a door for a little old lady, why not just wave by an elderly 240z just out of politeness, the old girl is a little rusty you know?

I hope the dang ITAC is listening.

Tom

(how do you do smileys? oh I got it! )

[wpspeedracer]

Originally posted by Geo:
That of course would be highly illegal since you are not allowed to simply choose the best parts. You must take components as a whole. And of course, you cannot create a model, so unless you have an 89 to begin with, it simply is not legal.

That's why I choose the 944 S....all you have to do is to get them to breathe and there's power (hp) to be found....just not much torque yet....I'm still sorting...and searching!

Mark
944 S
#54

[Geo]

Mark, are you on Rennlist?

Bill Siefert is building a 944S right now as well. I know Chris Camadella is as well.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[its66]

[quote]Originally posted by wpspeedracer:
[B]
....just not much torque yet....


Welcome to our world.

Jim
ITS 66
RX7

[JeffYoung]

I'll trade you guys some torque for some hp...........

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
I'll trade you guys some torque for some hp...........

I'll trade away some of my experience and good looks for some torque *or* horsepower...

[JeffYoung]

Hey hey! Greg, you are now in ITA......you'll be able to start trading 1st Place trophies here shortly.......

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
If one day all the cars in a class were actually classified using the same process (or, in other words, everyone had about the same wt/pwr ratios, with "adders" for brakes and other vehicle specific specs, etc), I wonder if the end result would change???

The grid order will not change much. Those who are dedicated enough to spend the moeny and time to hone their skills and prepare the cars to the extent the rules will allow will continue to win races.

You will also continue to be asked to justify your actions. Will be constantly confronted with claims that "you added too much for these brakes" and "subtracted too much for a live axle", or a non-ecu car needs a bigger break, or this engine is more responsive to ecu tuning then that one, etc.

How will you know how much to adjust the hp/weight multiplier without trial and error? There are sooooo many variables, you'll never get it perfect. So you throw some weight at an apparent overdog, take some weight off an underdog. Stand back and see what happens. Deal with the heat. Know that most of us are happy that you are doing something to attempt to reign some cars in, but realize that the system will never be perfect. After all, you are starting with peak hp numbers (I am not suggesting that it is feasible to do otherwise). Those of us with data aq know how much time we spend near that rpm (not enough). That peak number might be much closer to reality on a car with a fairly broad power curve and close ratio box. While nowhere near real world performance indicator when the motor is peaky with a wide ratio box.

Again, I applaud your efforts and your courage.




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Daryl DeArman