Beetle in ITC

[Geo]

Wow. So much being flung around here.

1) If you're concerned about the weight difference we can certainly add 1,000# to the Fiesta. Done.

2) Anyone who think the NB suspension is state of the art must have been cryogenically frozen since the mid 60s or so.

3) Somebody please provide evidence that the G grind VW cam is legal. This has been covered before. Per the rules I don't see any way it can be conceived of as legal. It is not listed on the spec line of any VW cars. Supposedly there was a ruling made back when dinosaurs ruled the earth, but it was not followed up on with an entry into the ITCS. Plain and simple. Somebody saying it's legal doesn't make it so, even if it's a supposedly "well known fact."

4) I didn't get my check from VWoA. Andy, Darin, did you guys?

5) The NV must use a large daisy as a number panel. <j/k>

6) The check from VWoA must be on the black helicopter.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Kirk... why would this car NOT be a competitive B car... especially when it's 100lbs lighter, theoretically speaking, than it should be??? Curious as to the reasons here...

Sorry - my bad.



K

[ITSRX7]

I decided not to type another explanation defending our recomendation. GRJ doesn't have any facts on our decision and seems to refuse to read when we have posted.

Bottom line, we think it will work, he doesn't. Time will tell and we how to have a method to correct the mistake if it turns out to be one.

I am out. This is rediculous.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Bob Burns]

Originally posted by Geo:
2) Anyone who think the NB suspension is state of the art must have been cryogenically frozen since the mid 60s or so.

VW has been using basically the same suspension system on the A-chassis since its introduction in the mid-70s. The geometry and the tuning has gotten better over time, but the basic concept is the same.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">3) Somebody please provide evidence that the G grind VW cam is legal.</font>

When I owned my ITC Rabbit, I carried the evidence with me with the car's logbook. The guy who built the car got a copy of the VW parts microfiche that showed the G cam as the replacement for the stock cam in a '79 Rabbit. If you walked into a VW dealer in the early 80s and asked for a replacement cam for a '79 Rabbit, you got a G cam. The ITCS clearly states that factory superceded parts are permitted. The ITCS also states that these superceded parts are to be listed on spec line. So, it would seem that the G cam only meets the GCr halfway.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">4) I didn't get my check from VWoA. Andy, Darin, did you guys?</font>

I know some of you VW guys have been around a long time. I've been involved in racing VWs since 1980 and have never seen one of these VWoA checks. About the only acknowledgement of SCCA Club Racing by VWoA that I can remember in the last 25 years was a photo of Tom Van Camp's 1986 SSC-winning Golf GTI in a VW ad that appeared in SportsCar in April 1987 (which I happen to have right here next to the keyboard).

Favoritism towards VW? I can't speak for today, but I never saw it in the 10 years that I was on the ITAC or the Competition Board.

Bob...

[OTLimit]

A few years ago Chris supplied some pictures for a VW ad in several magazines. Cool picture of Chris right next to a Volvo at Road Atlanta. To this day we have no idea why they decided to run those ads, because renumeration for the ad was minimal. To the extent that it was a, "Gee, isn't that cool." Nothing more.

VW gets so much favoritism from SCCA, and cares sooo much about racing in this country that we can't even get anyone from VWofA to respond to requests for information, let alone the type of activity that Nissan and Mazda provide for racers.

One person is getting in a tizzy about this, without even seeing a Beetle on the track. George has already covered the VW cam issue, so can we just move on?



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I decided not to type another explanation defending our recomendation. GRJ doesn't have any facts on our decision and seems to refuse to read when we have posted.

Bottom line, we think it will work, he doesn't. Time will tell and we how to have a method to correct the mistake if it turns out to be one.

I am out. This is rediculous.

AB

Andy,


I'd be interested in discussing this w/ you. I know that you and Darin have stated that you didn't think the NB could make the 2450# wt that would be required for ITB. I'm curious as to what you guys based this on. With the previous trend to take a conservative approach to car classification, couple w/ the fact that there's already a VW platform w/ the same engine/drivetrain that just got moved down to ITB, I would have thought you would have gone the other way. Put the car in ITB to start with, and see how it did for the first year. If it really couldn't get close to the spec weight, then move it.

I'm sure you guys had MVMA sheets to go from that showed what individual components contributed to the curb weight. Also, I'm curious as to just how much ballast/stuff that will have to be left in/on, that you guys see for it to make weight in ITC.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Catch22]

Isn't the "state of the art" suspension on the Beetle struts in the front and a beam in the rear?

And I'll bet the brakes are only slightly bigger than the brakes on my '91 Civic, and trying to stop 2700lbs.

The gearing... OK. Its got good gearing.
But its still lugging around 2700lbs.

The motor... OK, its got a 2 liter motor.
But its still lugging around 2700lbs.

The Volvo... OK, they are in ITB where they belong. They are also RWD and balance all that weight out better than a FWD Beetle will. I've also heard that the frontrunning cars are getting around 140hp AT THE WHEELS (this was noted in an article about Sam Moore's car a few years ago in GRM IIRC.).
So for a Beetle to match the HP of the Volvo, it'd need a legal improvement of about 45 to 50 horsepower.
Uhhhh... Yeah. OK.

As soon as I see an ITC Beetle bump drafting Sam Moore at VIR you can rest assured I'm whipping out the checkbook and a pen. It ain't gonna happen.
And if it does?
Well, hopefully we'll soon have a verified way to move it to ITB. I'm trusting the direction of the new board until they give me a reason not to. You might try to do the same.

You seem to have fallen into that old human habit of arguing using only the details that back up YOUR point of view, while conveniently forgetting the others. Do you even know the brake size of a Beetle or are you just assuming they are "big" because its a newer car?

[racer14itc]

[quote]Originally posted by grjones1:
[b]

Originally posted by Knestis:
The G-grind cam is not the issue here but I think it was a technical error made by parties at least not atagonistic to the VW cause. Problem is, it can't get undone in the current world.
________________________________________
K,
The G-grind is an example of favoritism for the VW people, and as such is part of the issue.
Yes it can. Let me use the XR2 cam and FF head.
G.

Hey G.,

I know this doesn't address the topic at hand, but why don't you convert your Fiesta to FP? That way you could run the FF head, any cam you want. You could still run MARRS races, nationals, and even the Runoffs. Since it's getting next to impossible to find usable OEM parts for the Fiesta (like cylinder heads and cams) it might be a good option to keep your car on the racetrack. I'm sure Bill Davidson and/or Joe Z. would help you out!

FWIW, I'm still not sure we'll see many New Beetles in ITC. Will people be willing to do that much work to develop a Beetle in ITC when they can build a Spec Miata for less and go faster? For the price of building up a competitive ITC Beetle I could build a rockin' limited prep 1.8 Scirocco for GP (which would be as fast as most ITS cars) and probably run in the top 10 (or better) at the Runoffs.

MC


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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited July 24, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

edit--post deleted as I really didn't have anything constructive to add. I know---it's never stopped me before.

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited July 24, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

A coefficient of drag of .38 is hardly what I would call aerodynamic.

[Bill Miller]

Mark raises an excellent point about cost. Figure a donor car is going to be somewhere around $8k - $10k. Figure that much again to build it. $16k - $20k for an ITC car? I doubt it!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[ITSRX7]

Bill,

andybettencourt at hotmail .com

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Mark raises an excellent point about cost. Figure a donor car is going to be somewhere around $8k - $10k. Figure that much again to build it. $16k - $20k for an ITC car? I doubt it!

LOL!

Yeah, think of the resale value!!

Guys, this is just a tempest in a teapot. Let it go. Let's see what happens. God, we have enough issues with cars already dominating or being rendered field fillers. I'm not going to lose sleep over an argument on paper. Somebody use that paper to like a bird cage or train a puppy, OK?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

email sent Andy.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo:
LOL!

Yeah, think of the resale value!!

Guys, this is just a tempest in a teapot. Let it go. Let's see what happens. God, we have enough issues with cars already dominating or being rendered field fillers. I'm not going to lose sleep over an argument on paper. Somebody use that paper to like a bird cage or train a puppy, OK?

George,

I was just making a comment on what I thought it would cost to build one of these cars. Sure, you'll be able to get some cheap ones that are flood cars or theft recovery. I just looked at Edmunds, and I guess I was a bit high. Private-party retail for a '98 NB is $6124. Still, seems like a big chunk of change for the start of an ITC car. You can probably buy 75% of the ITC cars out there for that much.



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by ITSRX7:
[B]I decided not to type another explanation defending our recomendation. GRJ doesn't have any facts on our decision and seems to refuse to read when we have posted.

AB,
I read your explanations and they still don't relate why a 25-year old 2.0 Volvo must remain in ITB and a 5-year old 2.0 VW (same weight and similarly sized brakes) gets to go to ITC. Please explain?
GRJ

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
1) If you're concerned about the weight difference we can certainly add 1,000# to the Fiesta. Done.

6) The check from VWoA must be on the black helicopter.
__________________________________________
Ah Geo welcome to the fray. You are so witty. Now if you only knew anything about cars.
G

[grjones1]

Mark,
I ran Production. Too expensive and labor intensive, especially at my age. But thanks for the thought. And until they began allowing V-8's in ITC (which apperas not to be too far away) I'll keep the Fiesta competitive.
G

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
A coefficient of drag of .38 is hardly what I would call aerodynamic.

_________________________
And the CD for anything else in IT?
G

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
George,

I was just making a comment on what I thought it would cost to build one of these cars. Sure, you'll be able to get some cheap ones that are flood cars or theft recovery. I just looked at Edmunds, and I guess I was a bit high. Private-party retail for a '98 NB is $6124. Still, seems like a big chunk of change for the start of an ITC car. You can probably buy 75% of the ITC cars out there for that much.

I know it doesn't happen a lot, but I was heartily agreeing with you Bill. You could build a $20-30k ITC race car that you might be able to sell for 1/3-1/4 of that.

If you're lucky.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com