Beetle in ITC

[Bill Miller]

The A1 hub problem is a well known, and well documented issue. It was mentioned in Greg Raven's book back in the mid-80's. I've heard of the Prod guys getting them cryo-treated, which has increased their life. Torquing the living crap out of the axle nuts is key. And, I always use new axle nuts every time I take them off.


I'm not sure if cryo-treating the hubs would be legal in IT or not.

As far as spares, I always had a fully built set of front corners w/ me at the track, along w/ a pair of axles. There was more than one occasion where they were needed, either by me, or by a competitor.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I'm not sure if cryo-treating the hubs would be legal in IT or not.

It should be. To disallow an optional safety purchase which is unrelated to performance is indefensible.

From a post I made earlier today on another thread on this forum:

"We have a customer who had a rotor explode on a 1/2 mile oval track. Not a big deal for circle track guys (they're always crashing into something), except one of the fragments bounced around in the engine compartment and lodged against the throttle linkage forcing it wide open.

So there he was heading into the turn 3 wall with full throttle at 130+, and all he could do was watch."

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Greg Amy]

I had a cooling system problem at the ARRC last year: the #3 rod went out the front of the engine and tok out the radiator...

What do you guys think about the New Beetle in ITC? Good, bad, indifferent?

[ianb]

I have not read all of the posts, but has the issue of wheel size been addressed? It looks like wheels would have to be 16 x 6. This is narrower than stock and not available. Hopefully the same reasonable logic of where the NB is classed will be applied to wheels

[Joe Craven]

NB good or bad?
Depends
With Comp adjustments - definitely good
W/O Comp adjustments - to be determined.

IT is getting increasingly broken. It sounds like people are working on it and I hope it isn't too little or too late.

Back to the NB, I'd be surprised to hear if someone is willing to invest the $$$ to build a car for a series dying a slow death. I still love the concept of IT and I hope it can be saved.

Classing the NB in ITC is a positive step if the next very difficult steps are followed. That is the tbd part.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Joe Craven:
IT is getting increasingly broken. It sounds like people are working on it and I hope it isn't too little or too late.

Back to the NB, I'd be surprised to hear if someone is willing to invest the $$$ to build a car for a series dying a slow death. I still love the concept of IT and I hope it can be saved.

Italics mine.....this is an interesting comment. By "series" do you mean ITC, or IT as a whole?? I would agree that ITC will wither without new classifications, but I disagree that IT as a whole is dying. (And the NB in C is a great move, whether or not the 1% of us here have a problem with it or not)

Perhaps we are seeing regional issues? Here in the NE, we have seen, without doubt, record IT turnouts. Car counts at Lime Rock and NHIS are very solid for B, A and S. Over 30 is not uncommon for A and S, and B is often over 20. C however, is less, but gets close to 10 on occasion.

I understand the MARRS series (Mid Atlantic Road Racing Series, I presume) is said to have C counts in the low teens on a regular basis, and the ARRCs, if I am not mistaken have shown increasing car counts with more drivers traveling greater distances over the years.

In my casual observations, I remember seeing strong IT counts for Laguna and Sears, but I haven't been watching those nmbers carefully so I may be mistaken.

While I agree that IT has some issues that need addressing, I wouldn't say it was dying a "slow death" by a longshot.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gsbaker]

Greg,

I deserved that.

G

[oanglade]

Originally posted by grjones1:

Originally posted by oanglade:
So, is it a safety issue or a need for "constant maintenance" issue?

Excuse me, Joe.
Ony,
If a "brand new high quality hub" breaks in its first weekend of use, how could it be a maintenance issue? I know, "if the bearing were improperly installed," but I'm sure Joe knows how to install a bearing, and this kind of thing happens quite frequently.
GRJ

I ask because on the same post he mentions that they break on the first weekend of use and also that he uses legal hubs that have not broken because of constant maintenance. Then we get a couple of other posts from people that have run the cars with those hubs for a long time without problems.

I understand that the hubs are a known problem. What I am trying to understand is if there is anything that can be legally done to use them and keep them from failing. Since he mentioned that he runs legals hubs that have not broken yet due to constant maintenance, then it sounds like there is something maintenancewise that can be done to keep them from being an issue. Maybe he changes hubs after every 2 sessions. I'm just trying to learn more about it.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[oanglade]

I hope that ITC continues on for a long time. More and more I think that ITC is where the smarter Club Racer goes after realizing that you can have as much fun as the ITS guys for a fraction of the cost.

For the amount of money that we've spent on our super low budget ITA Miata, we could probably afford a contending ITC Honda.

I hope that people build New Beetles and that more cars are classified into ITC to bring more life into the class.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[grjones1]

Originally posted by oanglade:

... I'm just trying to learn more about it.

Now, I understand.
G.

[badal]

Originally posted by oanglade:
I hope that ITC continues on for a long time. More and more I think that ITC is where the smarter Club Racer goes after realizing that you can have as much fun as the ITS guys for a fraction of the cost.

For the amount of money that we've spent on our super low budget ITA Miata, we could probably afford a contending ITC Honda.

I hope that people build New Beetles and that more cars are classified into ITC to bring more life into the class.

For the amount of money that would be spent on a New Beetle, you could buy a contending ITA Miata.

So they guys in ITC who are there because of cost issues will find it hard to compete with they guys with budgets to build NB's.


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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by badal:

So they guys in ITC who are there because of cost issues will find it hard to compete with they guys with budgets to build NB's.

So what? There are guys in ITS with $4000 RX-7's...are they entitled to an equal shot at a checkered flag even though they have an underprepared car given equal drivers? Nope.

If you are talking apple to apples, a top prepped NB and a top prepped 510/CRX/insert ITC contender here, SHOULD be on equal footing given our research and resultant minimum weight.

Just because it may cost more to build doesn't mean it will be faster.

AB


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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[grjones1]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:

Just because it may cost more to build doesn't mean it will be faster.
AB

Really doesn't matter, most people in IT are there because of low cost, as has been stated. So maybe this whole thing is a "tempest in a teapot": If the NB cost that much to build, no one will race it anyway. And of course the whole argument that the NB was classed in C to help "rejuvenate" the class is of course meaningless.

Or maybe the hubs will prove inadequate, and the guys will opt to build another car. Gee, everything is beginning to make so much sense. What was I thinking?!!
GRJ

[badal]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
So what? There are guys in ITS with $4000 RX-7's...are they entitled to an equal shot at a checkered flag even though they have an underprepared car given equal drivers? Nope.

If you are talking apple to apples, a top prepped NB and a top prepped 510/CRX/insert ITC contender here, SHOULD be on equal footing given our research and resultant minimum weight.

Just because it may cost more to build doesn't mean it will be faster.

AB

If the whole idea is to increase car counts, why do you think driving up the cost of racing will help them?

I didn't say it would be faster because it cost more, did I?

If it is faster, the cost of being competetive goes up, and the car counts go down.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[grjones1]

Originally posted by badal:

If the whole idea is to increase car counts, why do you think driving up the cost of racing will help them?

If it is faster, the cost of being competetive goes up, and the car counts go down.

Al,
We've got to stop typing at the same time.
G.

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by badal:

If the whole idea is to increase car counts, why do you think driving up the cost of racing will help them?

I didn't say it would be faster because it cost more, did I?

If it is faster, the cost of being competetive goes up, and the car counts go down.

IF the NB isn't an overdog, why does it drive up the cost of ITC? All the same cars are and will be competitive. It's another choice for people who may want to go to ITC to have.

Look, we can all agree if it is too fast for ITC, it is a bad thing in many ways BUT we don't know if it will be too fast and we THINK, given research and experience, that it won't be.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Knestis]

There are people with whom I have spoken who don't like the "image" of ITC simply because the cars are all old.

I personally decided that one criteria for my model choice would be that it was not more than one generation out of production - so it wouldn't look like the $500 cars we see smoking down our public streets.

That might be perceived as elitist, however.

K

[badal]

Andy,
In all this exhausive research you did, how did stock top speeds compare? It looks to me like a stock NB will go 10-20 MPH faster than the existing cars.

I don't see this mentioned as a criteria anywhere, but higher top speed sure makes passing easier.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[Catch22]

Originally posted by oanglade:
More and more I think that ITC is where the smarter Club Racer goes after realizing that you can have as much fun as the ITS guys for a fraction of the cost.

Exactly what I did. And its true, its just as much fun for a whole lot less money

For the amount of money that we've spent on our super low budget ITA Miata, we could probably afford a contending ITC Honda.

100% true. You probably would have had money left over as a matter of fact. Problem is that not enough people take this into account BEFORE they build a car. They pick a car they WANT to race, get halfway through the process, and realize they don't have the cash to compete in that class.
This is where ITC comes in. You CAN, without any issues, build a frontrunner for $10K or less. You can buy frontrunning pre-raced cars all day long for less than $5K. Then you learn that tire and brake pad wear is minimal, then you learn that spare motors and trannies range from free to dirt cheap (when was the last time you picked up a free Miata tranny??? I have 4 trannys for my car and haven't paid for one yet), then you learn that body panels are dirt cheap (try and find a $20 fender for a Miata or a BMW) and you wonder why ITC isn't the most popular class instead of the class that needs life breathed into it.

1. Word needs to get out that it IS actually cheap to race in ITC.
2. Need new cars classed to spark interest.
3. See #1

Scott, who says you don't race in ITC because its cool to do so. You do it because you can have just as much fun as the other guys and still afford to take your family on a nice vacation every year.

[Catch22]

Originally posted by grjones1:
If the NB cost that much to build, no one will race it anyway. And of course the whole argument that the NB was classed in C to help "rejuvenate" the class is of course meaningless.

Partially valid but not totally.
I personally would not currently build a NB for ITC because it would be cost prohibitive. But SOMEBODY(S) more than likely will do it. And when these somebodys do it, their $15000 Beetles aren't going to be any faster than my $10000 Civic. I'm sure of it.
The same way I often see a 1974 240z run with, and often beat, several $40000 BMWs. I expect to see $5000 Civics beating $15000 Beetles.

But I do agree that this isn't THE car to rejuvy the class because they certainly aren't cheap, and many folks will choose to spend that same money to go to ITA or SM simply because its "cooler" to race there. BUT, classing a late model, popular car in ITC is certainly a step in the right direction if not the answer to all the problems.

Scott, who is currently working on the paperwork to request classing for several 90s models of Fords, Mazdas, and Toyotas.