Beetle in ITC

[Geo]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
What I meant Geo was that the popularity of one versus the other varies by region.

Gotcha.

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
To your point, if you have an ITS, A, B, or C car you are correct. What if you have an IT7, Spec7, ITE, SM, SF, or CF? You don't have the ability to race in the same class with the same rules anywhere within SCCA either.

Actually, SM is recognized nationally now with unified rules. But the others you are correct about to varying degrees. Point taken.

But what classes in NASA can you race in all the places I mentioned?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

I know, I know, I said I wouldn't get sucked into the votex of illogic and namecalling again......and I won't!

I will let slide the recent comments, but I did want to wrap the thread up with a few awards.

First, the award for "Biggest Understatement",:
Although he only submitted ONE post in over SIX pages (sheeesh!), Mr Blethens' call for a moderator wins.
The judges did ignore some other posts that were contenders as they felt the poster wasn't entirely sane.

Second, the award for "Best one Liner", and the award goes to: Greg Amy! Nice job Greg! One judge reported spitting soup at the screen upon reading your post a few pages back. (Again the judges found much humor, but felt that the funniest posts weren't intended as such, and removed them from consideration.) Honorable mention to Geo for his very early post, but it wasn't a one liner.

Third, the award for "Best use of Art in a Post" goes to Mr. Knestis for his use of the graphic depicting a poster beating his head against a keyboard...we all felt that way, for sure!

Fourth, the award for "Best Judgement from a Regular or Semi Regular Poster" goes to Dick Patullo. Dick is always the voice of reason, but here he had the good sense to post........ nothing! The judges admire your restraint, (and admit to a bit of jealousy as well). Nicely kept out of, Dick!

And finally, the award for "Much Ado about Nothing, (while spreading anger in all directions)" , goes to.......ah...forget it on the last one...these awards are just for fun, no sense getting too obvious.

Have a great weekend guys, next week should return to normal civility, I hope.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 31, 2004).]

[badal]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Here's a question for Al. I know it's not scientific, or anything like that, just looking for some information. And since he drives an ITC 510, and holds the ITC record at Summit Point, there's probably some relevance.

Al, can you recall the last time, if at all, an A1 GTI ever ran under your Summit Point record? I'll have to look it up, but I thought it was something on the order of a 1:32.8. I'll see if I can find the official number.

Bill,
I had the archivist at the Bell Motorsports Museum attempt to locate those records, but she informed me the cat had hurled a hairball on them a few weeks ago and they had to be destroyed.
I do think if Chris Albin had brought his Rabbit GTI to SPR he would be in the 1:30 or 1:31's.


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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

I wrote the letter requesting the Rabbit GTI be moved to ITC (along w/ the 1.8 Scirocco) at the same time I wrote the letter to have the 1.7 cars moved. In fact, it was all part of the same letter. This was right after the A3 Golf was moved from ITA to ITB. I believe Derek Ketchie also wrote a letter to the same effect. At the time (I don't remember which FasTrack it was in), the request was denined because all the cars were deemed too fast for the class. Although, a few months later, the 1.7 cars are getting moved, at the suggestion of the ITAC.

With the NB classification in ITC, as well as some of the other recent moves, it seems that the ITAC is using the top performing cars in a class to establish the benchmark. I believe Darin actually said something to this effect several months ago, in reference to many of the ITS cars that were moved to ITA.

From what I can see, it sure looks like the Rabbit GTI is a close match for the performance potential for the 510. Which, while it's a top performer in ITC, is still not up to the Hondas, in some people's opinion. I know it's hard to look at these cars objectively, because of all the history, etc. w/ them, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try.

BTW Darin, I still want to see that evidence that you claim to have.

Al,

Sorry to hear about the 'feline malfunction'. And, while I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Albin, and what he can do in a VW, your opinion is just that, an opinion. I know the cars can run in the 1:33's, but I just don't know how much faster they are than that.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[grjones1]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 31, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Geo:
But what classes in NASA can you race in all the places I mentioned?

None that I am aware of. I was trying to illustrate that the situation of local classes (avoiding further confusion by calling them 'regional') is not unique to NASA or SCCA.

Being in Group 1 of a race schedule sure has its' benefits. Trailer packed up, car ready to go Sunday AM, came home, swam and had a BBQ!! Even have time to get my IT.com fix.



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Daryl DeArman

[16v]

I did a little poking around. Talking to 2.0 Xflow people, those with fully built up street motors from the aftermarket parts bin are "only" making 130hp at the wheels on a dyno. Mind you, most of the parts they are using to get these numbers would not be IT legal.


Food for thought in the debate

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Doug
NER.org
the16v.com
briansgarage.com

[This message has been edited by 16v (edited August 01, 2004).]

[gran racing]

Doug,

If the performance upgrades are not IT legal, does it really matter what the HP was? It would be like saying my prelude is capable of 250 HP. Sure, with a turbo, cams, and 100 shot of nitrous.

Guess I'm not getting the point you are trying to make.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[grjones1]

Originally posted by 16v:
I did a little poking around. Talking to 2.0 Xflow people, those with fully built up street motors from the aftermarket parts bin are "only" making 130hp at the wheels on a dyno. Mind you, most of the parts they are using to get these numbers would not be IT legal.
Food for thought in the debate

And I'm not trying to start up another ballyhoo, but you say "at the wheel," which is how much at the crank, which is where I think the estimated 144+ would be made?

And were these "built up" street motors without a cat. conv., with racing exhaust pipe, .40 over, and with .5 raised compression, etc.? Just curious.
GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 01, 2004).]

[Bill Miller]

Dave,

I think Doug was commenting on how likely these cars are to make 145ish hp in IT trim.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[gran racing]

Ahhh. Got it.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[16v]

yes Bill and Dave. I just throwing out an example of just how much can be made from the motors with "the works"

[ITSRX7]

So take away the illegal stuff and I bet you are right in the 144 crank/hp range. Right were we guestimated.

So far, so good.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Knestis]

From the Autothority chip people. Expect this to be a best-case scenario since it's their published marketing information...



Chip on an otherwise stock 2.0, by the way.

K

[JeffYoung]

300 posts, name calling and acrimonious nonsense on a car that has not run one lap yet, that it is unlikely anyone will build.

Interseting to say the least.

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

What do you figure the driveline loss is on one of these cars? 10%? 15%? 20%? more? If it's only 10%, Doug's numbers would indicate that ~145hp is all you're getting out of these motors, even w/ non-IT legal modifications.

Kirk,

Hard to tell from the graph, but it's looking like they're claiming 125-127 hp out of just a chip. I agree, that's probably pretty optimistic. But, it does make me wonder what a chip that was programmed for an IT-prep (increased compression, over-bore, optimized exhaust, etc.) would do.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[ITSRX7]

I use 15% as a rule. I know it's different for every car but it's all estimates anyway.

I still think that 145hp is a reasonable estimate.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Knestis]

I have a proposal to help resolve this issue: Each person who's participated in this conversation can put $200 in the kitty, we'll have an independent shop build a full-boat engine for my MkIII, and I'll post copies of the dyno sheets for anyone who wants to see them...

K

[Geo]

Or better yet, we charge $200 per post. This thread will die the death it should have long ago.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

Now THAT'S a creative way to get an engine built!!!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608