Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? (just a bit long

[Geo]

I'm against the chassis dyno idea. I'd go race somewhere else. First of all, big numbers doesn't mean someone is cheating. Second of all, it's nobody else's damned business what hp my car is putting down. Go mind your own business.

My God, this is regional racing. Cheaters suck, but before we start making lots of demands on officials, consider the fallout. Are we going to lose officials because of all the extra work? All for volunteers?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Greg Amy]

...Go mind your own business...

I thought cheating was our business, George..?

If you - George - have no clue what horsepower cars are making with IT mods, how can you - as an ITAC member - possibly do your job as an overseer of PCAs? Are you telling me it's no business of the ITAC (or the Comp Board) to become aware that some cars are getting as much as 30% improvements in horsepower with legal (or illegal) IT mods? You're telling me this isn't relevant to your responsibilities?

And, when did horsepower numbers become confidential or even a competitive advantage? How does my knowledge of your horsepower affect your advantage (or disadvantage) in any way?

Hell, why don't we make lap times confidential as well?

I firmly disagree with you on this point, George. It is our (your) business. How they got there - as long as they're legal - is not my business, but horsepower numbers are not confidential. In fact, they are direct correlative evidence to the possibility of cheating and/or the need for a PCA.

I sincerely hope this mindset is not pervasive among your ITAC and Comp Board peers...

(edit: minor typo.)

[This message has been edited by grega (edited May 22, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

I'm working in the yard, thinking about George's reaction to publicizing horsepower numbers. His is a common reaction, actually, as any time someone hears about hp numbers it's in "whisper mode", and any time some one has confided in me it's prefaced with "I'd appreciate it if you would keep this to yourself, but..."

So, why is that? How is it that the actual number is something folks want to keep to themselves? After all, my knowledge or lack of knowledge of the pull number has absolutely no realistic affect on the results of the car.

Then it hit me: it's all psychological. It's a big head game.

Everyone one of us (or most of us, at least) go into this racing thing expecting we're good drivers. Regardless of our expectations, we'd all, in some manner, like to believe we could jump into the Minardi and put it mid-pack or better. How many of us have looked at a back marker car and thought (I could do better than that in that car.) Even more importantly, we want our peers to believe that about us as well.

So, what we have here is a head game. Greg doesn't want George to know his horsepower numbers, because if Greg does well he doesn't want George to think it's only because he's got 20 more horsepower. On the hand, Greg also doesn't want George to know the numbers because if Greg sucks he doesn't want to look bad; he can always claim less ponies. This head game is even more pervasive in spec classes.

Well, I say: FUNK THAT! Cheating, PCAs, classifications and adjustments have absolutely ZERO to do with the psychological game, so the psycho game should not limit the technical game. I say dyno 'em, publish the numbers, and let the BS stop at the green flag. Pull down your pants, let's see what you got, and we'll settle it on the track.

Besides, I - like Andy - enjoy the game. I *want* you to know I just beat your 200hp monster with my 135hp car. When you see what I'm competing against you with, I think I have a psychological advantage to start.

I suggest (and this is not intended as a direct hammer, George) that those wishing to hold back the hp numbers may have a self-confidence problem...

GA

edit - more typos...*sigh*)


[This message has been edited by grega (edited May 22, 2004).]

So your looking for ideas to get people to conform to IT rules, you guys crack me up, a smidge brutal but heres a novel idea. For starters all you honda guys can bring your rear camber back to zero like its supposed to be although IT rules say you can adjust while not giving the same to the rest of the cars. secondly you can toss an extra engine block into you hondas spare tire well so your not 300 POUNDS LIGHTER, and while your at it, throw a little duct tape over your throttle body so your not 30 HP over the rest of the cars as well. whaa lah, nobody then will feel the need to run nitrous just to be mid pack. its your rules that is creating this problem, take away a persons hope and human nature is to regress. My answer to your problem was E Production and I feel pretty good about it, your solution is to get the rules changed.


[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 22, 2004).]

[gran racing]

Pauly, I said I do NOT care about washer fluid bottles and silly stuff like that. That doesn't bother me.

And this is my second season racing as well. Don't care how I do? If a person doesn't care how they do, then why race competively. I instuct HPDEs and get free track time by doing it. But you know what, I want to race. It doesn't matter if I am racing for 1st place or having a battle for 20th place, I still want to pass the car in front of me.

And if you don't cheat and don't care if others are, they you are raising the bar on performance levels in your class. If you look at a car that has the potential of reaching 140 HP fully developed legally; then because you don't care very much if a person cheats and are racing against that same car which now has 160 HP being illegal.

Sharing HP numbers - I have to say I am a bit surprised to hear that response. I would never have a problem showing someone my HP numbers. Why in the world would I?

One of the top ITA drivers on the east coast has been very open about his HP / torque numbers. How you get there is a completely different story.

Consider the fallout of catching cheaters and creating an environment where people are less tempted to cheat? Oh, that sounds horrible! IT and SCCA would probably just drop off the face of the earth. You have to be kidding, tell me you are, please. Have you considered the fallout of not controling illegal cars? I have spoken with numerous drivers that have left IT or other racing classes because cheating is not well enforced. Have you considered that some people never get involved racing certain classes / organizations because of the cheating and lack of policing?

The excuse that this is "just" regional racing is very, very weak. The idea here is to come up with methods not to make bad for officials and other volunteers. We would be more than happy to hear you ideas on how to improve upon the current process.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[gran racing]

Note: the above HP 140 / 160 example is purely hypothetical. Not talking about any specific type of car.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[quote]Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
[B]So your looking for ideas to get people to conform to IT rules, you guys crack me up, a smidge brutal but heres a novel idea. For starters all you honda guys can bring your rear camber back to zero like its supposed to be although IT rules say you can adjust while not giving the same to the rest of the cars. secondly you can toss an extra engine block into you hondas spare tire well so your not 300 POUNDS LIGHTER, and while your at it, throw a little duct tape over your throttle body so your not 30 HP over the rest of the cars as well. whaa lah, nobody then will feel the need to run nitrous just to be mid pack. its your rules that is creating this problem, take away a persons hope and human nature is to regress. My answer to your problem was E Production and I feel pretty good about it, your solution is to get the rules changed.





Im sorry, it was rude of me not to attach a name to that post.


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Daryl Brightwell
ITA RX7 #11
NORPAC
ITA RX7 #77
SOPAC

http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.p...m&cat=500&page=

EP this summer

[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 22, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

I, personally, would love for the top 3-5 to hop on a dyno at any random event.

Would LOVE that...

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Geo]

First of all, as I previously stated, dyno results don't prove a bloody thing. At best they put people on a witch hunt. Will they find a witch? Perhaps occasionally, but how many people will be burned at the stake (tearing their engine down) to find the occasional witch?

Secondly, while I would probably not hesitate much to share my dyno numbers, I won't race somewhere they are required. Sorry. Greg feels the desire to not publish hp is a self-confidence thing. That has nothing to do with it. I'd be less interested in people knowing what I put down if I was at the head of the class. First I wouldn't want to be torn down on a witch hunt. Second, if I make 10 or even 20 more hp than you and you believe you've gotten all you can get from the car, that is great. Keep thinking that.

Jon Milledge reports to be able to get 183 bhp legally from a 8v 944 engine. You know what? Nobody else seems to be able to reproduce this. NOBODY. Furthermore, most people only think you can add about 15-20 hp on a 944 engine if you go crazy all out. That's 10-15 hp short of what can be achieved. So yes, it's none of your damned business how much hp I make. Go figure out for yourself what's possible and if you figure wrong, too bad for you. THAT is part of racing. (BTW, I don't have a Milledge engine cannot afford one, but the point is that sometimes much more is possible than people beleive)

If I make way more than you think possible, too damned bad. Regardless of how much or how little my engine makes, I have nothing to hide. But I damned sure don't want to be required to make it public knowledge.

Oh, and as for lap times... You can always have someone on your crew time the competition. This has always been part of racing. It is public and therefore available to those who truly wish to know it. Dyno pulls and hp are something else entirely.

The only race series that I personally know of that require a dyno pull as proof of hp are those that set weight based upon the dyno pull. That will be the next suggestion someone will make.

I'm sorry Greg, I understand your position on these issues. But you've got mine all wrong. Or you flat out discount them. That's your prerogative. My opinions and beliefs are mine. But yes, you're right, as a member of the ITAC I have to listen to the membership. I have always done that and will continue to do that. When the membership of IT decides it wants madatory dyno pulls, I'll step down from the ITAC and go to EP or perhaps start up 944 Cup in Texas as I've been asked and always refuse. But I won't stand in the way of what the membership wants if that position is clear. Even though I am a member of the ITAC, I'm entitled to my own personal opinions, just as you are. I'll step down and leave IT when I feel dramatically differently from a clear mandate from the membership at large.

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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited May 22, 2004).]

[Geo]

You know, dyno pulls could also be used to justify and hide cheating. Can't make 183 bhp with your 944 engine? Cheat. Mild cam or some other cheat could get you some easy and cheap hp, and as long as you are below the "known legal level" who is going to question it?

Sorry, I just don't buy this idea.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

Well, this is a lot of stuff, but i will add a few points.

1- Add a code of ethics. We are an honor society, but it needs to be highlighted and hammered home. The loss of hope for some competitiors does lead to desperate measures and internal justifications, but that does not condone actions that are illegal. If a code of ethics eliminates some of the borderline guys, its a good step.

2- Tolerance. Penalities for malicious cheats (cams, compression, displacement and the like) should be severe. If we lose a racer in the process, that is a shame, but i don't like beating, or even losing to illegal guys. Surprised at the 'beating' comment? Heres why..he beat someone else. Someone who tried hard, but had the integrity to do it legally. We should all be concerned no matter where we finish.

3- Dyno pulls. Sad to say, but I know of a lot of guys who would "mysteriously" 'break' or fall out to avoid a dyno pull. They DO have a number to hide that is NOT in line with their car, and they DON'T want it known for obvious resaons. Sorry, but a big number from a small engine might not be an indication of cheating, but it, with other factors might indicate further investigation. Those who got there legally will have no issues. (as long as any tear downs are handled properly)

4- Data sets. Again, one pull won't set the world on its ear, but more will add to the data set that needs to exist for proper classing. We assume the ITAC is in EXISTANCE to add reasonable expertise to the numbers...the Hp numbers, the weight numbers, and the numbers of racing, which don't always make sense. Their ON TRACK, and AT the EVENT experience is what makes the concept valuable. I submit that more numbers can only be a good thing, and the analysis of those numbers is where the magic occurs.

4- Pragmatically speaking, it would be tough to make the dyno pulls idea happen. I sure would enjoy it though!

5-The downside. It won't catch all of them, maybe not even half. In many cases different run modes could be created, but agian, doing so is more work, and some guys might just decide its not worth the bother, or the risk, and go legal.

6-Putting more roadblocks in place, and showing less tolerance will weed out many. you will never get them all, but any reduction is still a worthy goal.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Jake]

I have to chuckle everytime I hear the "$10 Trophy" argument. If that really rang true we wouldn't see the incredible investments that we see in IT builds, and everyone would be running long-wearing Toyo RA1's. Think about the top ITS/A cars in YOUR region. About how much $ is in each one of those cars (in order to just get that $10 trophy)

As for secret HP numbers, that's rediculous. If I figured out how to build a 160HP legal MR2 motor, guess what - I'd want to tell the whole world!! Heck, I could probably fund my IT carreer selling the things!

[Dick Elliott]

There has always been cheating! There will always be cheating! There will always be people who will cheat even if it cost them HP! SCCA-NASA-NHRA-NASCAR-IMSA-ETC-ETC all have people who are cheating at one time or other. You can not stop it. You can only slow it down a little. Look at the Monday morning report from NASCAR about who is being fined for yesterdays race. Run what you brung is the only way to stop cheaters. My 2 cents worth.

Dick, lol, that'll shake em up, lol. really guys, fix the archaic rules and youll lesson it.


D Brightwell
EP rx7 with a bridgeport and a holly 750
ACME PN#HLLY-RX-12A-750
http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.p...&cat=500&page=4



[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 23, 2004).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
3- Dyno pulls. Sad to say, but I know of a lot of guys who would "mysteriously" 'break' or fall out to avoid a dyno pull. They DO have a number to hide that is NOT in line with their car, and they DON'T want it known for obvious resaons.

But not everyone who doesn't want their hp know is cheating or lacks self confidence.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Sorry, but a big number from a small engine might not be an indication of cheating, but it, with other factors might indicate further investigation. Those who got there legally will have no issues. (as long as any tear downs are handled properly)

Yep. If they die in the the fire, or drown in the dunking seat, they must not have been a witch. Next!

Originally posted by lateapex911:
4- Data sets. Again, one pull won't set the world on its ear, but more will add to the data set that needs to exist for proper classing. We assume the ITAC is in EXISTANCE to add reasonable expertise to the numbers...the Hp numbers, the weight numbers, and the numbers of racing, which don't always make sense. Their ON TRACK, and AT the EVENT experience is what makes the concept valuable. I submit that more numbers can only be a good thing, and the analysis of those numbers is where the magic occurs.

One other fallout of doing dyno runs will be justifications for full wacko comp adjustments. "Oh, so and so makes 5 more hp. The weight of all those cars needs to be adjusted."

Thanks, but I think I'd go elsewhere. Hell, I'd even race in a spec class and I have no interest in them.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

George "Yep. If they die in the the fire, or drown in the dunking seat, they must not have been a witch. Next!"

lol, this isnt my nose, really.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Geo:
One other fallout of doing dyno runs will be justifications for full wacko comp adjustments. "Oh, so and so makes 5 more hp. The weight of all those cars needs to be adjusted."

Thanks, but I think I'd go elsewhere. Hell, I'd even race in a spec class and I have no interest in them.

George, it is interesting that you say that...as my point was that one benefit would be that you, and your brethren on the ITAC would have more data, real data, to utilize. If the data sets for a certain car in a certain class show a range, it can be useful to you. And if a number falls well outside that range, on the high side, it could indicate something amiss.

To someone at the location, who has seen that particular cars behavior and know the history, it might indicate the result of good development work, or something afoul of the rules. It doesn't mean the car is illegal, bt it can be a fator in making the decision to investigate further.

If a teardown proves the car is legal, no foul, we now have a new point in the data set, and a solid legitimate one at that.

The comparison to a witch hunt is not appropriate here. Nobody is being drowned because they are suspected of foul play.

I see the concept as a real boon to classing and a nice way to keep the temptation to pull a fast one down.

It'll never happen, but I would support it if I had the chance.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Dick Elliott:
There has always been cheating! There will always be cheating! There will always be people who will cheat even if it cost them HP! SCCA-NASA-NHRA-NASCAR-IMSA-ETC-ETC all have people who are cheating at one time or other. You can not stop it. You can only slow it down a little. Look at the Monday morning report from NASCAR about who is being fined for yesterdays race. Run what you brung is the only way to stop cheaters. My 2 cents worth.

And my two cents is that malicious cheating is not acceptable.

Don't cite NASCAR as support for your statement, as it has NOTHING to do with us! We are are a member driven organization, NOT a professional group who's job it is to push as far as the sanctioning bodies inspectors will let us!

WE are the inspectors!!

With the current rules based system in place (not run what you brung, what a spend fest that would be!) we can expect that we respect each other and run clean.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Dick Elliott]

No where in my post did I say SCCA should do anything. All I stated was what would stop cheating in any group. Run what you brung is the most non protest rules I know of. If you dont like the cheaters in IT go run GT. I did and I never again had to worry if my washer bottle was full. You come from the group that states," he/she must be cheating because they out ran me"

Im seeing a trend here, 10 people, 8 discussing how to fix a problem, 2 that have already found the solution, guys, "Intent" not only breeds the virus, it says its ok because you were never given any garrantee of competitiveness from the start.