Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? (just a bit long

[gran racing]

I realize that this topic might not be the wisest discussion for me to bring up and I should probably put a big target on my poor blue CRX, but many people including myself feel this needs to be further addressed.

The purpose of this discussion is to see how we could reduce cheating in IT racing, but it could useful in other classes as well. I’m not sure it matters too much why people cheat, other then to address possible issues that often lead to it. With the proposed PCAs, hopefully some of the temptation will be reduced. But that’s another discussion.

Cheating happens on all levels of racing – it is just a fact and it will probably always happen. But more could be done to discourage cheating and catch those who do. Often times I feel cheating occurs due to a trickle down effect. A person believes that another racer who is faster is cheating (whether true or not), then begins to cheat themselves. It just seems to snowball. Other times people feel that their car is misclassed and their only way to be competitive is to cheat. Of course there is also the belief that you they won’t be caught. I’m sure that a person who is cheating has some rationale behind it. And it doesn’t mean that they are a bad person. Wouldn’t it be much easier if people knew everyone else is legal and the ramifications of cheating are just too great to risk it? I would imagine things would be made much easier and less stressful even for those who are currently cheating.

I have spoken with many tech inspectors in different regions. Often times they can’t help but chuckle at some of the things that they see and that nothing is done about it. And the tech inspectors or other workers should NOT be put in a position to protest cars. Besides, they are volunteers helping us and shouldn’t have to worry about this task. And I’m not talking about “minor” illegal items, but things such as cams. I have also spoken with several engine builders. The first time it came up I was really caught off guard. Guess I was just being naïve before. The builder goes on to explain what they could do to the engine, and the gains that could be seen. Wow! Often times this build is even cheaper then if they were to build a legal engine and it sure would have more power. It has been explained that they build these “cheater” engines for many SCCA racers. (Whether this is true or not, who knows) They then go on to explain that it is such a remote chance you’ll be caught because there is no easy way to determine that it is illegal unless it is torn down.

At this point, you might be asking then why don’t you protest a car that you feel is cheating? There are many reasons why people don’t protest. For a mid-pack driver like myself, I just don’t bother. If I finish 20th or 19th, does it really matter? There are also several other reasons. People also don’t want to ruffle any feathers and make enemies. These are just a few common reasons, but there are many more.

Is there a way to implement a method that does not require an individual process the protest and be “the bad guy”? It should still be possible for people to protest someone else’s car; this would be in addition to the other new method. This method would need to make sure it is not too intrusive and a pain in the butt for non-cheaters.

Possible methods? This is where we need to do some thinking; I honestly do not know what the real answer is. In another previous post, the idea was somewhat jokingly suggested of doing a potluck raffle. But hey, maybe something like that could work? Maybe do random item checks of miscellaneous things (much more than now) on the top finishing cars. Possibly open this random check up to the top 1/3 of the field. Have a list of the current “hot cheater items” to look for and the related cost to evaluate them. For example: Higher then allowed compression (cheap to check), cams (log book I have says $100 to test), and etcetera. How do you pay for the cost of these random inspections? Make it a part of the entry fee. Maybe build a “You Better be Legal” fund. In one race don’t inspect any cars in great detail (like now); in another do several checks. I’d be more than willing to pay $5.00 more to ensure more cars are legal.

Publish the list of cheaters in FasTrack – “Hall of Shame.” Include the car, person’s name, region, what they got caught for. It should not include people who are in violation of “minor” items (would need to come up with a list of what is deemed minor).

Stiffer penalties need to be imposed then currently are listed. Maybe if a driver is caught with an illegal cam, ban them for 365 days from all SCCA racing. Right now (and I could be wrong), it is like being warned that if you go 100 mph in a 55 mph zone the police officer will delay you for up to ½ hour on the side of the road. Get caught more then 8 times in three years, and you’ll lose your drivers license for up to a year. I know, this is a bit of an exaggeration but you get the point.

Before implementing the new methods I certainly do not think it would be such a bad thing to make it very public that at the end of the season, if your car is currently illegal you better use the off-season to make it legal. By doing it this way, it gives people the opportunity who have gotten caught in the snowball to correct things. We also need to realize that someone might have something illegal and simply is not aware of it. The violation also needs to fit the punishment. This could be another big discussion on its own.

Why not make IT a beta for a new method to regulate illegal cars? Many of us complain about it (whether founded or not) – shouldn’t something be done? What can be done for the future – the past is the past.

Please provide your ideas, suggestions, and thoughts on what could be done realistically and fairly. Of course we’re not going to tear down the entire field; not silly stuff like that. Hopefully people won’t just react to this or twist things around.

In any replies to this thread, DO NOT mention any specific cars or people that you think or know are cheating.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[apr67]

I think every divisonal series should consider having a tech fund as part of the entry fee.

Most of these series have a race that you have to be at to be the winner. In the midwest, its the double points race, in the SouthEast its the SARRC Invitational.

Then at these races you could do a little more than tech normally can.

I think posting every protest and every result, just like they do for COA stuff now, should be done. Prehaps we need to use a member portal on the SCCA website so fast track doesn't end up 1000 pages long.

Alan

[racer14itc]

Alan, are you suggesting that the FV, F500, Prod and other racers in the SEDIV pay higher SARRC entry fees so that the IT guys can have more rules enforcement? I sure hope not. Racing is getting expensive enough as it is!

The issue here is that there is already a system in place to monitor cheating: the protest system. If it doesn't bother someone enough that their competitor is cheating to protest, then so be it. If it bothers you enough, then post the teardown bond and get on with it.

Also, the GCR already has procedures in it to vary the penalty depending on the severity of the crime.

Another problem is that I'd estimate that 50% of the IT racers out there have never read the rule book when building their car! They go by what other people tell them is "OK". It's always amazing to me when I point out something that is wrong/illegal on a car and the owner says "really? The rules don't allow that?". And if they have a GCR, often it is several years old!

I DO have a problem with engine builders knowingly building illegal engines for people, but in the long run that is a bad business policy. All it takes is one protest/DQ and word gets out that the engine builder is a cheater. Although it doesn't seem like it sometimes, there is still an honor code among SCCA racers and cheaters tend to be scorned/discounted.

My philosophy when I raced ITC was something along these lines: until I was fast enough to challenge the known legal "big dogs" in ITC (Rebstock, Perry, Silegren, Puckett, Chaney, etc.), I didn't even give a second though to the other guys in the field who may or may not have been cheating. And it was pretty obvious who was cheating mid-pack but couldn't drive worth crap! The fast ITC guys raced and had been torn down at the ARRC and were found legal, so those guys were the ones I worried about.

The bottom line is that we race for a trophy and there isn't a lot of money on the line, so anyone who feels the need to cheat to win a $10 chunk of wood is a loser. Period. Don't worry about it.

Now that I've moved to production, it's a different animal. The guys I race with in nationals are guys who have been to the Runoffs, have been torn down and proven legal. And FAST! So I don't worry too much about cheating since eventually we all have to put up or shut up at the Runoffs.

Mark Coffin

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited May 21, 2004).]

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by gran racing:
Have a list of the current “hot cheater items” to look for and the related cost to evaluate them. For example: Higher then allowed compression (cheap to check), cams (log book I have says $100 to test), and etcetera. How do you pay for the cost of these random inspections? Make it a part of the entry fee. Maybe build a “You Better be Legal” fund. In one race don’t inspect any cars in great detail (like now); in another do several checks. I’d be more than willing to pay $5.00 more to ensure more cars are legal.

I missed a couple of things the first time I read this and wanted to add a couple of things.

The compression test: not sure how "cheap" it is to test. If someone was protesting me, I'd make sure they paid to pull the cylinder head, cc'd the pistons, head and did the exact calculation. The accuracy of the "whistlers" is questionable. Teardown bond: $hundreds.

Cam test: the $100 is JUST the cost of sending the cam to the test machine at SCCA. It still will cost you $hundreds to get the cam out of the engine, especially if it's a cam-in-block engine.

I'm not willing to add $5 to my entry fee to ensure IT legality. I hate being nickled and dimed to death. Now if JUST the IT drivers want it, then that's another issue. But ask them all first!!

MC


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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited May 21, 2004).]

[GKR_17]

Something I'd like to see changed is the policy of not allowing the protestor to monitor the teardown and view the suspect parts. This is done to preserve any prep secrets. However, in IT the rules are clear as to what you're allowed to do so there shouldn't be any prep secrets. When the SOM's are hostile to your protest (I've seen this several times) to begin with, it is very difficult to have any confidence in their findings when you're not allowed to see the parts.

[gran racing]

"Also, the GCR already has procedures in it to vary the penalty depending on the severity of the crime."

Yes, and I stated this in my initial post. But come on, what am I really risking by cheating? Based on the current penalty system, not much.

"Another problem is that I'd estimate that 50% of the IT racers out there have never read the rule book when building their car! They go by what other people tell them is "OK". It's always amazing to me when I point out something that is wrong/illegal on a car and the owner says "really? The rules don't allow that?". And if they have a GCR, often it is several years old!"

Don't you think a new method would serve as a wake-up call?

Cost - again, I'm not saying I have all of the answers. I just think this needs to be looked into. Maybe there are other ways to cover these costs? I don't think it would be such a bad thing to evaluate a new process and see where it goes.

"The issue here is that there is already a system in place to monitor cheating: the protest system. If it doesn't bother someone enough that their competitor is cheating to protest, then so be it. If it bothers you enough, then post the teardown bond and get on with it."

If only life were so clear and simple. How often do you see protests in regional races? Not talking about the ARRC. You think people don't care about winning or that others may be illegal? Come on. As GKR 17 pointed out, the process is pretty intimidating. And you think that people don't protest because they don't care enough? I know you are wrong.

Now if something were done by SCCA and it was closely monitored by the group...who knows.

Hey, if nothing else people become more educated about the protest policy through this tread then so be it. At least it is a baby step. I know I've learned a lot about it before I made this post.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[racer14itc]

Dave,

I understand where you're coming from. You'd like the "SCCA" to be big brother and take on the chore of ensuring compliance of all competitors so every feels like they had a fair shake. But I think it'd be very difficult to establish a "compliance committee" at the regional race level for a variety of reasons.

Our races are for "fun". Especially at the regional level. How much fun would it be if a portion of the field was forced to stick around at the track after their race was over so that the "compliance committee" could tear down cars to ensure compliance. Would you like it if you had to stick around until late Sunday night every weekend if you finished in the top third of your class just so that the tech guys could crawl around cars and make sure that everyone "earned that trophy"?

Don't take my responses the wrong way. I'm on your side. I raced IT for 6 years and had a blast. But I kept it all in perspective. Yeah, I KNEW people cheated and KNEW who they were. But it just didn't matter enough to me in the grand scheme of things (life, love, etc.) to really care about it. I raced because I enjoyed it but my life really wouldn't change one bit if I successfully protested someone who beat me illegally. Did it bother me sometimes when I got beat by someone who cheated, yeah. But if we all got beat by folks who I knew were legal it just made me that more determined to find a way to win legally.

The most successful approach I/we ITC racers found was the community intervention. A group of us would approach the suspected cheater and together we'd point out what we felt was wrong and that we'd all collectively protest at the next event if the illegalities weren't addressed. Strength in groups if you will.

Trying to force a "big brother" approach in an all-volunteer organization just won't work, in my humble opinion. The stewards, tech guys, etc., all want to go home on Sunday afternoon too. If someone wants to lodge a protest, then they will deal with it. But the "compliance committee" approach just creates more work and longer weekends for everybody and I don't think it would be very popular.

Again, I know what you're trying to accomplish. If the solution were easy, someone would have come up with one by now. The fact that we still have a competitor -based protest system tells me that a better solution hasn't be found.

MC

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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited May 21, 2004).]

[RSTPerformance]

Cheating...

I suggested the "drawing out of a hat" idea before. I still think it is a great idea, however I don't think that everyone in a class would participate. A key point to the idea was that the idea would be organized by the drivers of a class as a whole. Tech probably wouldn't be impressed that class if every race had protests, but hey if SCCA doesn't want to do it, then I certainly think that we as drivers/compeditors can. I personally like that idea of "self governing" what WE as a class feel are issues.

I have not gone forth to try and impliment anything in ITB in the Northeast because I can honestly say that I think every car is legal that has raced thus far. Last year I certainly felt their were a few not so legal cars. My problems stemed from people knowingly cheating and not pulling out of the race on the last lap. I have much less of an issue with cheaters as long as they don't effect the end results, and they are fun to race with... (Example, last year someone raced a ITB car knowing that it was illigal, did very well in the car, couldn't afford to fix the car correctly. He/she should have pulled in on the last lap, as some people are racing towards a championship)

Anyway, I will keep my fingers crossed and hope that everyone stays legal this year!!! If anyone else would like to start up something then I would be very happy to join in. I know that my brother also would be as he has very stong opinions about the issue as well.

Raymond Blethen
RST Performance Racing

[gran racing]

Mark, I hear you and agree with most of what you said. Of course we wouldn't want something to lengthen the day / weekends. Maybe a pre-race check? Don't know. I just know it really gets to me sometimes; more then others.

I like the idea of a group of racers in a class getting together. That still takes the pressure off of one single person. And approaching the person in a civil and nice manner before protesting them is another great idea.

Some of the times I've seen in the past, well...like RX7 Jake said it is a matter of physics. Just not possible.

Could a list of anticipated costs be created for protesting certain items? Maybe simply providing more info. on the subject and greater explaination of the proceess might help. An article in FasTrack about the process? Yeah, it technically is in the GCR but I've read it several times and still have many questions. I could as the SOM, but it would be nice if the process were communicated and explained more fully to everyone. I have spoken with several racers and they have the same confusion / intimidation about the process.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[gran racing]

I guess since I'm talking about all of this, I should cancel my crane order.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[Jake]

My 2cents - drawing out of the hat idea is AWESOME!! I didn't see what Ray suggested before, but I see it like this: Every race or two one random podium IT car is fully inspected. Obviously we would have to check out costs - even if it was just one car per calander year, it could certainly go a LONG way as a deterent. The way I see it, there is currently NO deterent to cheating regionally, because getting caught is not an issue.

[Greg Amy]

My 2 cents after doing this for about 20 years:

- Self-policing doesn't work.

First, no club racer wants to risk the bond unless there's a nearly-guaranteed return. The only possible return for that risk is the possibility of catching someone cheating; in a lot of cases (certainly Club Racing) it's not worth the risk.

Second, it really takes bad blood in order to protest someone. That bad blood could be there in advance; if not it will certainly be there afterwards. Thus, unless you really dislike - or want to dislike - someone it's unlikely you'll protest. There's just no incentive to, as most people would rather accept the cheating than cause ill feelings among competitors.

Third, proof that self-policing doesn't work is why there are mandatory tear-downs at major events (e.g., ARRC, Runoffs). After all, if self-policing worked, we wouldn't need those tear-downs, would we, we'd just rely on the other competitors to protest.

- It takes a special event - and Supps mandate - to warrant having the tech crew pull a car down. These tech folks are volunteers, and for the most part sociable human animals (there ARE exceptions), so they have no motivation to take up THEIR time to pull a car down; after all, there's beer to be had. Same as above, too: Stewards and scru crew have no desire to create bad blood. With the mandated tear-downs in the supps then everyone can point to those rules-in-the-sky makers as the fall guy, shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Hey, man, gotta do it..."

- When there is a special event, and the supps require a tear-down, THERE IS NO BOND. The financial risk is taken by the guys that place well, and they understand this in advance as a price of victory. They'll have to pay the costs and do their own tear-downs; SCCA does NOT reimburse anyone for tear-downs at such events (ask me, I know: I've taken my Showroom Stock car home literally in separate boxes after the Runoffs).

- Everyone wants the OTHER guy torn-down, but no one wants to GET torn down. Hey, it's a great idea, but Not In My Back Yard. Problem is, we don't draw straws for this. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and deep down none of us really want to take the risk of getting picked.

The bottom line of all this is that there's very little incentive to protest someone, regardless of how bad you think they're cheating, thus there's very little DISINCENTIVE to cheat. On top of that, while everyone crows about "hey, it's just a plaque", well that don't fly, Homey: we're here to race, not toodle around in single file, so there's a very big incentive to cheat, from "fudging" all the way to outright bombs-away cheating.

What it comes down to is that our system is relying on our honesty. As in all things human, some choose to abuse that trust.

One thing that does fly well was alluded to earlier: peer pressure and shame. While I've seen some competitors over the years revel in their infamy, most want their peers to accept them as a legitimate winner. So, if one can peer pressure others into compliance, it's a win-win. Some good ideas that have worked include "interventions" where competitors go to someone in the paddock and demand compliance, other good ideas include open-hood policies after sessions so everyone can get a look. Sure, you can't spot a camshaft in an open hood, but it's fun to watch and see who's nervous about having others looking and who's not. Besides, if you're willing to toss in a camshaft, you're probably slipping in other things, too.

Nothing's going to change until everyone has an incentive to change. We need incentives to play legal, and incentives to protest, and incentives for the scru crew to look closely and take people down for it. Find those incentives and you've got your winner...

[ITSRX7]

Greg,

Well written. I have always been on the "if you think someone is cheating, then protest them" side of the fence. You have moved me over.

On the bad blood thing: while I agree that there will be bad blood, I find that funny. I would welcome a protest - it's sort of an honor that someone thinks your set-up is so fast it's illegal - and when found legal, you are eliminate 100% of the whispering and get put together at no cost.

I guess I agree that we need more proactivity. Let's brainstorm some ideas here so we can request our local Comp Boards for future random class checks.

What would ya'll like to get checked? Min weight? Gasoline type? What else?

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by racer14itc:
The bottom line is that we race for a trophy and there isn't a lot of money on the line, so anyone who feels the need to cheat to win a $10 chunk of wood is a loser. Period.

Amen to that. Cheaters suck.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

I like the open hood policy. As Greg said, if someone is tossing in a cam, they are probably doing other things.

As for what to check, I like the idea of checking cams. The problem is while they are usually reasonably easy to pull, tech crews don't have the tools and known legal samples to prove legality/illegality. Just checking lift and duration doesn't cut it. Also, checking lift on a cam with hydraulic lash adjusters is tricky to get right.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Jake]

I just thought of a worthless item. Mod ECU's became legal because they were "impossible" to police. Is it my imagination, or does EVERY modded ECU increase the rev limit? Isn't the rev limit one of the EASIEST things to check?

--edit for typing quick (read what I meant not what I wrote!)

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited May 22, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

When did modded ECU's become illegal? The internals of the brain, in the stock box, are essentially free.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">What would ya'll like to get checked?</font>

Assuming PCAs get approved: chassis dyno the winners after the race and publish the information like we do sound readings. Keep in mind what I said about incentives.

When the ITAC and Comp Board recommend a car for classification, it's with some reasonable assumptions about performance potential with allowed IT mods. Let's say, for example, that when the ITAC classified the NX2000 in ITA they expected the stock 140 crank hp of the Nissan NX2000 to go up 15% and set the racing weight at 2515 pounds. In general, we also expect a drivetrain loss of 15% on the chassis dyno.

So Greg's NX2000 shows up and BLOWS away the competition consistently. Each time he's dyno'd at 170hp at the wheels. "Hmmmm," says the ITAC, "this is a hell of a lot more than we expected. Greg keeps telling us he's legal. You know what, we screwed up: let's add 100 pounds to the Nissan NX2000 for 2006, pending lack of proof from someone that he's cheating."

THERE'S your disincentive to cheat, and your incentive to protest. If you have the power of PCAs in your pocket, you have the power to "punish" anyone that cheats in the long-term.

"But what about the NX2000 driver that's *not* cheating," you say? There's where the peer pressure comes in. I guaran-damn-tee you that other NX2000 and Sentra SE-R drivers will seek Greg out and DEMAND that he get that JWT S5 camshaft out of there, because they know that a lead trophy is on it's way. Other Nissan owners should and probably do know the capabilities of their cars, and they'll know when one of their own is cheating. If Greg refuses to comply, then other Nissan owners, who know EXACTLY what to protest, will, so they don't get penalized for Greg's actions.

To summarize, with PCAs we are creating a significant long-term DISINCENTIVE to cheat and an INCENTIVE to protest.

Short-term (race-by-race) this doesn't create a disincentive, but if Greg consistently dynos 135-140hp each event then pulls a 165hp at the NARRC Runoffs, now we've got somewhere to go with this. You'll probably see some paper fly at that point.

We demonstrated last year at LRP that portable chassis dynos are feasible and practical. The ones we used were the DynaPack type, which bolt right up to the hub; they're about the size of a large travel trunk each. I use those for tuning, and I watched the guys at the track use them on others; it takes about 15 minutes per car to get a good run and costs about $25-50 each.

Hell, charge $5 per spectator and it'll cover the weekend (just kidding.)

Remember, when you're thinking of ideas, think long-term. That's where the answers are.

Greg

[gran racing]

This is great! I wasn't sure how well taken this post was going to be...

Greg - I like your ideas. Dyno several of the cars after the event and do not just limit it to the top three. Maybe do the top three and some ramdom ones in the top 1/2 of the field. There are several benefits to doing this.

Open the hood - pull people into impound and let everyone have a look for 1/2 hour. It wouldn't cost the regions anything to do this (or very, very little). And it would be a great opportunity for the field to socialize.

Weight - definately. But again, not just for the top three cars.

As for what gets checked - I personally am not concerned with some of what I call minor violations. Like what? Missing horn, missing washer fluid bottle...stuff like this that will not effect the performance of the vehicle. Again, not sure how practicle but: check the cam one time, compression, pistons, flywheel.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[paulydee]

Most of my opinions have already been stated above. At my stage of the game (second year racing), protesting cheaters is the last thing on my mind. I focus all my efforts on my driving and getting better at racing.

And since there a $10 piece of wood at stake, why spend money and time on calling someone out. Do I really care if a competitors windshield washer bottle is missing, do I care if someones dash is mutilated to fit aftermarket gauges? Not really.

I suppose at the front of the grid there is more reason to route out cheaters.

Another thing I am a big fan of is the above mentioned open hood policy. I have nothing to hide so come on over. Maybe someone could suggest something to make my car better for all I know.

In the past I have seen and heard cases of ITS RX-7s built by Speedsource that are always under wraps, and no one is allowed to look at them. The excuse is that the setup is proprietery information or what ever.

I am not saying that those people are cheating, but it does promote suspicion from fellow competitors. The whole protest process seems like a pain in the ass. Also in some cases mentioned above, getting the car in compliance would be a major expense in some cases. So then those people won't be able to race which reduces entrys and the fields start looking like GT grids at regional races.

If we could all be one happy family and build each others trust and confidence in one another, the the protest process would not even be needed.

Pauly D