Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? (just a bit long

[GREENLOCUST]

A tech or competitors can poke around all they want, mic the cams or test compression etc. But without a full tear down you cant catch lighter pistons, lightened rods, flywheels, valve train (anybody know the correct weight of a stock Jensen Healey valve keeper?) Why not use a system like NASA and base the cars on power to weight ratios? ITS say 13.1, ITA at 15.1, etc. Cars could then be adjusted with penalties and breaks for competitiveness. This could go a long way towards keeping costs down. For instance on an Miata, you could spend $1000.00 on machine work blueprinting a motor to get an extra 5hp. If you weren't restricted by rules, a $200.00 cam swap or throttle body would net the same hp. As long as your car isn't over the horsepower for your class, it's fine. Regular dyno certification and no cockpit adjustable engine management is working very well in the NASA American Iron class. America Sedan and AI cars have very similar outputs but you can put together the AI motor for much less money. And a dispute is as easy as a dyno pull.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by GREENLOCUST:
And a dispute is as easy as a dyno pull.

While I like the idea, I think history has shown that sandbagging can be practiced at very high (read: undetectable levels).

I have a hard time swallowing that there aren't sharp competitors who don't have a "technique" when it comes to dyno time.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[GREENLOCUST]

I think there could be ways of sandbagging a dyno run but it could be minimized. Maybe limit the intake tract to pulling underhood air instead of cold air under the bumper, and having any ignition boxes or aftermarket ECU mounted on the firewall instead of the cockpit. Ban cockpit adjustable timing controls and make dyno runs be made with the fuel actually raced. I could see using low octane fuel to get a knock sensor to pull timing, lowering horsepower or making their dyno runs on the hottest day of the year. I think that once people vet themselves to a class, the challenge would be not getting to close to pushing themselves up a class. It would still be easier to police. A tech can sit in a competitors seat and check for an adjustable timing control much easier than policing the current guidelines.

[apr67]

The Nasa american iron thing would be easy to cheat on.

How about I use a ignition computer than drops power if the car is started, killed and restarted? Or imagine anything you would like.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that one reason for not cheating is because it isn't worth enough.

Beyond that. Dyno's are NOT reliable, especially initeral dyno's.

[Dick Elliott]

The local dirt track has a 17 inch's of vacuum rule. They dont care what you do inside the motor as long as you can pull 17" of vacuum. You would be really be surprised at how little you can do and still pull 17"

[wpspeedracer]

Fortuantely ( and unfortuantely ) cheating will always fall back to the individual and their own moral fiber...and you have only yourself to look at at the end of every race.....Does it really feel that good to win a race knowing that you cheated to do it?

I got into racing about three years ago and made the decision to get into ITS by the car I wanted to drive....unknowing the ability of that car to win. I thought this division was set up such that you could build a car within the rules and be competitive, no matter what the make and/or model....that it came down soley to the ability of the driver. ITS was inviting more because of the number of competetors in every race that intriqued me....15 - 20 cars instead of 3 to 5 like GT-1. So off I went....first by reading the GCR - ITS throughly to understand what I could and couldn't do. I rember early on those helping me modify my first ITS car that I had purchased tell me all the things they could do to the car ...and their expressions when I would quote the GCR " you can't do that...that's illegal" Often, they would say..no it's not...unknowling because they never read the GCR and I would point the item out....So! everyone else is, you need to to be competitive.....and so on.

So I gave it a year and a half running my little 944 N/A way back in the back of the pack...just working on learning how to carry momentum and become a better driver. My goals were to always post a better lap time with each race and to return home with the same car I started with after a weekend of racing.

Finally, last spring 03' SCCA approved the 944 S into ITS. Here I figured I could now build a car that could be competitive. Over this last 18 months, I have painstakenly built a car within the rules of GCR with the quest to be competitive. Many time the temptation has presented itself to go that little extra, however, something is keeping me within the lines that we should all maintain.....my lap times are coming down, my relative position is getting better (I'm slowly moving up the gird) not because I'm doing what I shouldn't be doing, but hopefully from becoming a better driver. Now the personal satisifaction is from knowing that I am posting lap times and finishing up with those with a legal car knowing how illegal they are. Even more fun is watching them spend an incomprehensible amount of money and I'm still right there.

Then there are those that are legal up where I am that I am really enjoying racing with. I watch and listen with every new race....find out from the more experienced drivers how to get that extra 10th by taking turn 17 just a little faster...braking just a little deeper and being as competitive as I can be with the equipment that I have.

Remember: " There will always be a faster car...there will will be a better driver...have fun...we all get the same prize $money at the end...Be Safe!"

Hopefully within ourselves we become the ones to maintain the ability not to cheat because in the end you only have yourself to look back at...after that...enjoy the day!

Mark
#54 ITS (TAZ)
944S

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited September 04, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited September 04, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by wpspeedracer:

I got into racing about three years ago and made the decision to get into ITS by the car I wanted to drive....unknowing the ability of that car to win. I thought this division was set up such that you could build a car within the rules and be competitive, no matter what the make and/or model....that it came down soley to the ability of the driver. ....... So off I went....first by reading the GCR - ITS throughly to understand what I could and couldn't do. I rember early on those helping me modify my first ITS car that I had purchased tell me all the things they could do to the car ...and their expressions when I would quote the GCR " you can't do that...that's illegal" Often, they would say..no it's not...unknowling because they never read the GCR........

Mark
#54 ITS (TAZ)
944S

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited September 04, 2004).]

First, great post Mark. I agree with you completely, but I am frustrated by those who chose the other (easier) path. While some think that they are acting in a way that is only kidding themselves, I find it disrespectful to the rest of us. But anyway....

Your first paragraph is interesting...it shows how our moral fiber can play a direct role in the car we drive right from the start. You assumed that the SCCA had set up a perfect world and you had a fair chance in any car ....ah well, I wish it were so!

Your friends showed thier character by asssuming this and that was legal, and never reading the rulebook.

Interesting how a persons character can make him assume different (both incorrectly, BTW...) things.....

(..and this post could also be used as fodder in the "newbies screw up" thread as proof that a FQ section wouldn't be a bad idea. This post illuminates the mindset that some guys like Mark have, who start out thinking that whatever they choose has a chance.)



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Ron Earp]

As for what to check, I like the idea of checking cams. The problem is while they are usually reasonably easy to pull, tech crews don't have the tools and known legal samples to prove legality/illegality. Just checking lift and duration doesn't cut it. Also, checking lift on a cam with hydraulic lash adjusters is tricky to get right.
[/B]

I saw this discussion on another thread with BMWs and tear-down fees etc. I have a E36 BMW and I'm prepping my JH right now. Checking lift of a cam in an OHC engine is simple on most designs. In fact, just did it on the JH to comapre with cams I have on the beach to make sure the ones in are stock. Dial indicator, magnetic base to hold it, turn the motor over, measure cam lift. Sure, I can't do duration this way but just checking the lift would spot a lot of problems and is quick and easy to do. No need to pull it for an easy check like this. uOn the JH I could actually do it through the oil fill hole!

Looked at the E36 in the driveway too - pull the black engine cover off, pull the valve cover, same procedure just a little more complicated.

[Geo]

Try doing that on an HVLA car with rocker arms.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Ron Earp]

Yes, it will not work for some cars, but it'll do fine with a lot of the SOHC and DOHC designs. It certainly isn't a fix all but I merely wanted to point out that it doesn't have to be labour intensive or a five hour process in many cases.

Sorry, don't want to pirate the thread either. This legal/illegal and protest mechanism has me intrigued. I'm learning a lot, but I'm also seeing where some things are not optimal.

R

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[lateapex911]

I guess it gets back to the original presumption, and tat all cars are legal unless the proteter can sffect proof otherwise.

The tech officials are then handed the leg work in proving the protest. As such, they can't take teh protest,which would presumably be for an illegal cam, and just check the lift. It wouldn't prove that the cam was legal, just one aspect of it was. And thats the crux of the problem with cams. Determining what you should have vs whats actually there.

The very cornerstone of the process puts a lot of responsibility on the protester, and the system works well to discourage petty protests, but also a lot of legitimate protests get muffled as well.

You are right in that if the protester wants to protest cam lift only, he can, and its a more simplified task. He is making the bet that the protestee is dumb enough to blatently cheat, but the protest will do little to prove that the car is really legal.

And that's probably why you don't see a lot of protests like that. Guys say, 'well, if I catch him great, but if I don't, it doesn't prove that he IS legal, and I pay a high prive form a social aspect'. The risk/reward ratio isn't good, and most just continue grumbling!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Ron Earp]

I'm new to this and maybe shouldn't comment, but here goes anyway.

It seems to me the protest system is difficult, at best, to use. And, if you do use it you just created some seriously bad blood between you and whomever you protested, regardless of the outcome. There should be another system in place that can remove the racers from the mechanics of how it works, leaving them to race and not engage in what is going to be viewed as personal attacks.

The lottery system was suggested which would seem relatively fair. Variations of the scheme could be picking from the top five cars at a race, or having a maditory insepction once every year or so that be done without prior knowledge.

I'm sure cost could be a concern, but maybe groups that specialize in certain cars could be formed that do teardowns for that model and similar. Before anyone asks, yes, I'll ante up and promise to tear down all the Jensen Healeys and TR8s that are racing, it is the least I could do. ;-)

Seriously, the way the protest system is now I really don't see how anyone could use it. I've not been out there, but I've received a lot of help from IT folks in the 6 weeks I've been working on my car. Very knowledgable folks that I like and look forward to meeting in person. Using the protest system seems to be difficult if you wish to keep any friends on the grid. Not to mention the cash portion of it since it can cost considerable money to do something that should be happening anyway.

Ron



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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rlearp:
I'm new to this and maybe shouldn't comment, but here goes anyway.

Actually your viewpoint is important because of your newness...

It seems to me the protest system is difficult, at best, to use. And, if you do use it you just created some seriously bad blood between you and whomever you protested, regardless of the outcome.

Bingo

The lottery system was suggested which would seem relatively fair. Variations of the scheme could be picking from the top five cars at a race, or having a maditory insepction once every year or so that be done without prior knowledge.

Here are some issues. (And I should go on record here that I would support a better system, as I agree the current one is not without its drawbacks).

1- The biggest issue it the tech staff, which varies greatly between regions. Having enough knowledgable staff is difficult to get at any race, and finding those who are looking for "more work" thins an already light crowd.

2 Procedural issues. Like the legal system, many cases get decided on procedural mistakes or inconsistancies. Its a fairly complicated procedure, and demands a lot of time to administer, separate from the teardown mechanics of it.

3- Knowledge base. As you pointed out, there needs to be proper knowledge, but that will have to come from the crowd. Conflict of interest anyone?

Seriously, the way the protest system is now I really don't see how anyone could use it. I've not been out there, but I've received a lot of help from IT folks in the 6 weeks I've been working on my car. Very knowledgable folks that I like and look forward to meeting in person. Using the protest system seems to be difficult if you wish to keep any friends on the grid. Not to mention the cash portion of it since it can cost considerable money to do something that should be happening anyway.

Ron

And that, my friend, is why you rarely see a mechanical protest at a regional event. The Runoffs, the ARRCs, or othr "marquee" events are different, but it rarely happens locally.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to quash ideas...but it's helpful to undrestand the monster before you can dicover it's achilles heel!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[m glassburner]

Can anybody figure out a somewhat easy and cheap way to police this ?? mike g.

[Ron Earp]

Well, on this disassembly/tech inspection we're assuming it has to happen at the track and I suppose that is a correct assumption since people have to return home that weekend. And, we're assuming that the inspection should be done by us, meaning SCCA folk. But, those constraints certainly limit possiblities because our resources are limited.

If a lottery system were devised that selected from the top 3-5, randomly, and, the inspection was only done every 2-5 races, also at random, then I think it could become a possibility.

It seems to me it would be possible to form a disassembly team from the large number of people that are available. This team would be comprised of enough members that at any race there would for sure be enough to do the job so that when the random check comes up it can be performed.

Certainly, the things that people are after to check are the most important - engine meaning:

*Heads for illegal port work
*Valve sizes, port work here or illegal valve jobs
*Compression ratio
*Cams - lift and duration
*Cam timing
*Intake/carbs/porting, illegal parts

And of course there are many others, but this would catch some of the big things. Of course brakes, chassis, etc. to be inspected but this is fairly easy.

Not all the good engine stuff could be checked - but certainly the high spots could be checked with a buret, dial indicators, micrometers, and a few other things. I'm sure that there are enough people here that have the knowledge to pull this off. With the owner gladly participating too, because the inspection was random instead of a personal attack, then it'll go smoothly. I'd wager that most owners can tear their cars down pretty easily thus with them overseeing it should go quickly.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, there always are, and I'm sure some people might say "you people aren't tearing down MY $20,000 engine", but, at the risk of getting flamed and kicked out of here, is IT about $20,000 motors? And, to check the basic things that are needed a teardown doesn't have to happen - head removal, which is usually no huge problem, can get most of the stuff people are interested in knowing about.

I might be way off here but I'm just trying to inject a little newbieness into this procedure that seems to, by and large, not work too well.



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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[Chuck Davis]

When I first began racing (back in the 20th century) tech would randomly select a top finisher during the inpound process (having agreed in advance among the tech inspectors what part or parts they were going to inspect)and verify the legality of that part or parts. This was done for every class but not every race event. It helped slow things down but didn't totally discourage the "creative thinking" among the competitors.
Your rational is well founded and I appreciate your concerns. The problem is that cars have become much more complex and the general level of tech inspectors less knowledgeable about the cars. The second factor is time and the numbers of qualified tech people at race events. Use your protest power!!! Make sure you get it right when you file the protest. You may think you'll end up the bad guy but the truth is you'll be appreciated for actions.

[Ron Earp]

Hi Chuck,

Looks like this movie has been played before! However, just because it has been seen it before doesn't mean we shouldn't watch it again.

The cars are going to become increasingly "complex" but people will have to figure out a way to tech them. If we can build them, which it is apparent we can, we need to be able to tech them.

I still think for the things that we want to check, they are relatively accessible. If we go down the road of "the cars are too complicated" then we will open the door for the folks that don't mind working with the complicated cars to have a heyday. If I know you won't tech my BMWVTECSXVANOSWhatafluzit because you're afraid/unable/unwilling to take it apart, then, it might invite less honest folk to put all matter of cams, rods, cranks, displacement, etc. into the build.

Just my 0.02 cents. There has to be a way to make this work to remove the finger pointing, bad blood, and relative lack of use and teching of the cars.

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[lateapex911]

Good points on both counts.

Lets see what this results in.

We could....hire tech guys who are paid for their knowledge and have them tear into cars at will...

Increased entry cost would take care of the cost.

Many problems with that idea...too may to list. Thoughts?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITB 2M4]

There are different types of 'dyno pulls'.

My dad and I held track records at Sebring and Moroso, but were 9!!! seconds off the pace at Daytona (A definate HP track for ITC).

My personal favorite was the guy who outweighed me by 130lbs. (back before weighing car with driver), used the same car, just a year later model w/hatchback so it had to weigh 150lbs. more, and could pull around me, pass me, and break the draft after I'd put a car length on him coming out of the turn onto the back straight at Moroso.

If the dyno thing doesn't work for some, just get a stopwatch, mark off a known length of straight, and maybe even get a cheap radar gun.... that will tell you a lot too.

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Fl. Region ITB Fiero
AIM- DGPFiero

[Racy-Stacey]

Guys this is a great topic and I think a lot of you are thinking too hard at what could be done.

I would like to create the 10% rule.

The 10% rule is simply this.
Now this will by no means be a cheap way of going about fairness but It just might work.

The first thing needed is a Dyno at each track. The top runner(s) (( if ) protested)) would be subject to the 10% rule.

Each car would be placed on the dyno. SCCA would have a national average of each cars dyno plot of a legal race car running slicks. The dyno plot would be matched against the SCCA spec for the car being tested and the protested car must fall within 10% horsepower/ torque of the SCCA spec.

Any offenders of this 10% rule would be subject to a tear down if a futher protest was reqested at a fee higher than the fee for the 10% rule protest.

This would allow a fast quick determination of cars running HP/Torque way higher than what a legal race engine would putout. And would not condone tearing an engine down. The 10% rule would also allow for tuning avariences and atmosphearic conditions and elevations found around the country.

If my frinds BMW is racing against another BMW that smoked him by 1:04 a lap.. I would like to know what power output that car is making against the SCCA spec for that car.

When we classify our cars there is a box listed for HP/TQ output for each and every car looking to be classified. Now with allowed bolts on's - Headers and 2-1/2" exhausts and high flow cats or no cats, removed emissions devices. The power and tq ratings go up.

So what SCCA would have to do is look at the first numbers (stock output numbers) place one legaly prepped race car with all the legal modifications allowed to the engine. Place this car on the dyno and do 3 pulls and get a reading. Then calculate the 10% varience and there ya have it.

There are about 20 different types of cars running IT.. I dont think it would take millions of dollers to test 20 cars.

Well thats my idea to keep the peace and keep the fun alive in IT.

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Toodles,
Stacey_B AOL IM: SCCAStaceyIB 1990PGL SCCA STSL "Girls Do It Better" Cal Club T&S, BWRP,WS,Lag,Hallett www.scpoc.com : www.probetalk.com Racing is my life. Winner One Lap of America 2003- SSGT2 class 1996 Ford Probe GT.