Wiring Harness

[cherokee]

FLASH BACK

[dickita15]

Maybe you can get Healey to superceed the wiring harness part number with a roll of #14 wire from NAPA.

george you must admit that strict rule interpretation in cases like this are difficult for the racer. this is the reason i do not like the rule. change is not unprecidented, if i remember from fastrack such an allowance was made for A Sedan this year because many cars start as fire/theft cars.

dick patullo

[Ron Earp]

Dick, you are on the money! If JH still existed...

The fact is the wiring is so simple that if I hadn't mentioned it here I probably could have re-wired the whole thing, in electrical tape covering, and under inspection nobody would know. But, I'm just trying to be honest and do things the right way.

My personal opinion is that the rule is silly. Maintain stock parts per the rule book, but does it really matter what wires conduct the electricity? Hell, if BMW folks can run a MOTEC engine management system to me that is far and away more changes from stock than me running a few wires to control my car. But, what do I know, I'm knew to this and just want to play the game right.

Ron


------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[JeffYoung]

Since I am the one who told Ron he could do what he is asking to do, I feel like I ought to jump in here.

George, I understand your points, but isn't it a fair reading of the rule to say that when you have a frazzled wiring harness (and I've seen Ron's and it is frazzled) you can repair it by rewiring? I guess I just don't see how that isn't within the spirit of the rules.

Ron, as Jake and others have indicated, probably 99% of the cars you will run against have been completely rewired with fuse panels, etc. No one in the SeDiv is going to protest you, and I think they would get a big old raspberry if they did.

Jeff (who carries TWO fire bottles in his car as a voodoo protection against Lucas instigated electrical fires)
1980 ITS TR8

[Ron Earp]

On further thought, I definitely could have re-wired this thing and nobody would ever know.

It took 10 days in 1973 for the factory to produce a JH. Now, since these were low volume we probably had one guy, say Malcolm, that made wiring harnesses. When Malcolm caught a bad case of the brown bottle flu, or worse, expired, someone else, say William would do his job. Then the wiring harness would be totally different - different day, different person. How do I know - I've seen two JHs now and neither have very similar harnesses and both are supposedly stock.

So, factory spec repair - probably no such thing. I imagine that my spec repair will be just fine.

Ron

[cherokee]

I think you know the answer

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:

Jeff (who carries TWO fire bottles in his car as a voodoo protection against Lucas instigated electrical fires)
1980 ITS TR8

Thanks ALOT Jeff, I now have sticky Coca Cola ALL over my nice flatscreen monitor, and I think I got some in my sinuses....

Ron, more power to you...you're gonna be just fine. In hindsight, this might have been one of theose cases wher you ask for forgiveness, rather than permission!

And this coming from a guy some have called a "rules nerd"...although I don't see the likeness....

As usual Kirk adds a good thought, AND we all now know how he can be protested! Turn in the rules nerd badge Mr. K! LOL


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

I don't think there's much question on this point, frankly. Running a parallel wire to fix a break is a repair. Wholesale replacement of wires in the stock loom is a repair. Building a new loom by replacing all of the melted wire, using the OE connectors, is a repair...

Putting the stock loom in the glove box and running a few new wires to suit one's own purposes is outside of the spirit of the rules.

It's that last bit that makes me a NERD, I guess.

K

Originally posted by dickita15:
Maybe you can get Healey to superceed the wiring harness part number with a roll of #14 wire from NAPA.

george you must admit that strict rule interpretation in cases like this are difficult for the racer. this is the reason i do not like the rule. change is not unprecidented, if i remember from fastrack such an allowance was made for A Sedan this year because many cars start as fire/theft cars.

dick patullo

I agree, try and make a 7 run with to stk harness and still monitor what you need.

[Geo]

Originally posted by dickita15:
george you must admit that strict rule interpretation in cases like this are difficult for the racer. this is the reason i do not like the rule. change is not unprecidented, if i remember from fastrack such an allowance was made for A Sedan this year because many cars start as fire/theft cars.

The rules allow for the wiring harness to be repaired. The minute we allow replacing the wires alongside the stock harness is the minute I build an entirely new harness for my car for just the components I need.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I don't think there's much question on this point, frankly. Running a parallel wire to fix a break is a repair. Wholesale replacement of wires in the stock loom is a repair. Building a new loom by replacing all of the melted wire, using the OE connectors, is a repair...

Putting the stock loom in the glove box and running a few new wires to suit one's own purposes is outside of the spirit of the rules.

It's that last bit that makes me a NERD, I guess.

No, talking about the spirit of the rules requires you to turn in your Rules Nerd badge. Spirit has has nothing to do with it. The rule is written. What it says is what it says, spirit be damned.

So, by your belief written above, you're OK with me building a new wiring harness for the components I will use and running that through the car and using only that, leaving the stock harness limp inside the car? You'd better say yes. The minute I can replace individual wires and leave the old one intact is the minute I make my own wiring harness.

In fact, with these discussions here and elsewhere, I'm strongly considering doing this anyway. My wiring harness is balled up in the driver's footwell in my car right now waiting for me to paint it. If I just create a harness for those things I need to connect, hooking my car back up will be a breeze and the harness will be much more reliable and easier to work on should I have an electrical problem.

You know what, I think it's time for me to write to Topeka for a ruling on this one. It could save me a bunch of work.

[edit]
BTW, I will run my original and unused harness roughly where it originally went. It just won't connect to anything.

[edit2]
Friends don't let friends type while sleep deprived. (minor corrections)

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 24, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 24, 2004).]

[Ron Earp]

Is someone going to write KS on this one? If not, I'll be willing to do it.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[cherokee]

Originally posted by Geo:
The rules allow for the wiring harness to be repaired. The minute we allow replacing the wires alongside the stock harness is the minute I build an entirely new harness for my car for just the components I need. I would bet that the J-H and other cars of this vintage, and type are about the same....we ain't talking about a-lot of wires here guys.

Just out of curiosity what would you not need on my 34yr old car? I want to keep all the lighting, I need all the wires to make the gauges work, I need all the wires to make the motor run and the charging system work. What else is there? The speaker (ONE) wire, and the radio that's it.



[This message has been edited by cherokee (edited August 24, 2004).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by cherokee:
Just out of curiosity what would you not need on my 34yr old car? I want to keep all the lighting, I need all the wires to make the gauges work, I need all the wires to make the motor run and the charging system work. What else is there? The speaker (ONE) wire, and the radio that's it.

Well, if you go with aftermarket gauges you don't need those wires for starters. How many more wires do you have in a 34 year old wiring harness?

[edit] to correct formatting.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 24, 2004).]

[dickita15]

so before i write my letter asking for a rule change to allow you to build a new harness, what is the down side. for older carburated like mine i see it as no big deal. you would only want to replace it if your old one is suspect. with newer computer cars is there any way that putting a new harness in could change performance.
dick

[cherokee]

Originally posted by Geo:
Well, if you go with aftermarket gauges you don't need those wires for starters. How many more wires do you have in a 34 year old wiring harness?

[edit] to correct formatting.

Not many what did not turn green was reclaimed by mother earth


As far as the other I wanted my guages to light up....I like lights They are pretty.

Originally posted by Geo:

I am installing 100% aftermarket gauges in my car. I can wire them as I see fit. I have removed a number of items that are allowed to be removed. The ends of each wire will be shrink wrapped and groups will be further shrink wrapped.

Are you sure....the gauges are free, but I do not see in the letter of the rules that you can replace the sending unit wires (if you are using electrical gauges) and if by the letter of the rules it does not say you can you can't...right or would you have to use the same lighting on your old guages. We are talking about bulbs here not gauges.

What I am saying there are gray areas in the rules everywhere and you can lay your car out as you see fit. Thats part of the fun of it. Just like these debates.
If you get protested and it falls through you where right. If not then you where wrong...bottom line is what everyone here says ain't worth squat. It is what happens in the tent that does matter. And who knows what the court of public opinion would say about someone that would protest you over a extra couple of wires.

[This message has been edited by cherokee (edited August 24, 2004).]

[Ron Earp]

I have a question along the same vein.

I thought I read on a thread here on the board that BMWs are running MOTEC engine management units. I am familar with these and what they are capable of. Is this true that this is allowed?

To me, this looks to be one heck of a bigger change than patching/altering/repairing/or replacing a wiring harness, especially on a simple car like I have. ECUs are unlimited but replacing a wiring harness with a safer setup is difficult to get through the rule book? That makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[Knestis]

Originally posted by dickita15:
so before i write my letter asking for a rule change to allow you to build a new harness, what is the down side. ...?

"No, that's not a piggyback ECU - that's a 'wiring connector.' Seriously - see how the wires connect to it? Really. Don't look at me like that. What? WHAT!?"

I think there is a WORLD of difference between repairing a problem by running a couple of parallel wires - with the OE harness still there - and building a new one that doesn't replicate the original.

I've never advocated for removing "wires that you don't need," except to the extent made possible by the removal of optional equipment. For example (dare I say it), the ABS system uses a small harness that lays parallel to the standard engine bay and dash harnesses in my Golf. If I can run a car that never came with ABS, I can take out those wires under the up- and back-date rule. The radio harness, heated seats, and some other stuff are treated the same way.

I cannot - as we did with the rally car - just unwind the harnesses and remove anything that I don't care about any more.

K

EDIT - Geo, it seems to me that the "spirit" in this case is embedded in the connotative meaning of the word "repair." It's certainly allowed that we may REPAIR a wiring problem but it is NOT allowed - by the meaning of the word - to "repair it away" and put in its place an assembly that does not fulfill the functions of the original.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited August 24, 2004).]

[apr67]

Originally posted by Knestis:
For example (dare I say it), the ABS system uses a small harness that lays parallel to the standard engine bay and dash harnesses in my Golf. If I can run a car that never came with ABS, I can take out those wires under the up- and back-date rule. The radio harness, heated seats, and some other stuff are treated the same way.

Umm.. So if the car didn't have a radio, the harness for it wasn't their?

Beware, rule nerd alert.

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I think there is a WORLD of difference between repairing a problem by running a couple of parallel wires - with the OE harness still there - and building a new one that doesn't replicate the original.

Following this logic then you would definitely not approve of a BMW running a MOTEC engine management computer. The MOTEC does have functions (very advanced ones too) that control the engine but does not have a lot of the controls and code that are in the OEM computer. It certainly doesn't replicate the OEM computer since it is unsaddled with a lot of code/functions and it offers a performance advantage.

A replacement wiring harness offers a safety advantage for me, over stock, but offers me no performance advantage.

So, to my novice eyes and way of thinking, running an aftermarket performance computer to control an engine would be a much larger change away from OEM/stock than any of the wiring scenerios were are discussing here.

Ron


------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 24, 2004).]