component removal

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I can but my Mom said I'd go blind.

You probably hid your rulebook under the mattress and snuck peeks at it late at night, didn't you?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I can but my Mom said I'd go blind.

K

That's only when your "dainty bits" are involved.
GRJ

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by grjones1:
That's only when your "dainty bits" are involved.
GRJ

Kirk...you gonna let this guy call your bits "dainty"???






------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[grjones1]

GRJ [/b][/QUOTE]Kirk...you gonna let this guy call your bits "dainty"???

[/B][/QUOTE]

I was only using K's own words. He knows.

[lateapex911]

I do too...thats why the was included.

Cheers

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

Knowing one's own limitations makes it possible to compensate for them in other ways.

K

[Marcus Miller]

somewhat back on topic (and I apologize for not having my GCR infront of me)

Can we relocate heater controls?
I am thinking of converting my Pro7 car into an ITA car, but have gutted the interior. I still have most of the pieces, but I designed my knee bar such that it runs right in front of the heater control spot in the center console. Would that qualify for removal based on safety equipment poitioning?
A dash picture is here:
http://images.miller-motorsports.com/engin...ne/PICT0115.JPG

I was thinking if I have to lug around a heater core, blower motor, etc it might as well work....

M.

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Marcus Miller:
Can we relocate heater controls?
Would that qualify for removal based on safety equipment poitioning?

M.

Marcus,
Here I believe are the rules that are supposed to answer your questions and why simple answers are not available.
ITCS 3. e. "Air conditioning systems may be removed in whole or in part.
g. Heater core and hoses shall not be removed. ..."
And 9.c. "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced, or removed. They may be installed in the original instrument(s) location using a mounting plate(s), or any other location using a secure method of attachment. Other than modifications made
to mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the remainder of the dash “board” or panel shall remain intact. Other than to provide for the installation of required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger compartment alterations or gutting are permitted."

These all appear to be "limiting" statements, but actually open the door for interpretation with the "other than" statements which allow removal of components when they are in the way of cage bars or even new instruments or other safety equipment. Where it says "heater core shall not be removed," most people assume you can remove the heater box as long as you retain the core, i.e., if you had to retain the heater box, it would say "box" instead of "core".

Those of us who read the rules with a half-full glass interpret the "instrument" business and allowance for safety items to permit us to remove things from under the dash to make room for our changes. Those with half-empty glasses strictly adhere to leaving things in unless the item is specifically mentioned as removable.

I beleive, because your knee bar needs the space, your controls and box can be moved or removed, whichever you like. But there are those who will disagree.
GRJ

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Knowing one's own limitations makes it possible to compensate for them in other ways.

K

And oh how many of us (that's first person plural) need to compensate.
GRJ

[Geo]

Relocate controls?

OK, since opinions are being offered, here's mine....

As already stated, if the cage gets in the way, sure. In my case (and other cars as well) the HVAC controls are in the center console. Since I can lose the console, I must be able to relocate the controls.

I personally find the argument for removing the heater box extremely weak. No where does it say you can remove the heater box except if it interferes with the cage. That's my personal interpretation. Personally, I wouldn't race without it.

Have you run a race in the rain? My last rain race I had a perfectly clear windshield. I started from the very back due to no qualifying time (lost time in tech and putting on the rain set-up). I passed the pole sitter in the first turn, first lap (off the track). Talked with him later and found out he couldn't see a thing through his windshield. He barely passed me on the last lap. He was in ITE with a Porsche 951 (944 turbo). I pointed him by. Why hold him up, right? Well, I probably could have held him off for position. See, it was the last lap with 4 corners to go, if I hadn't slowed to let him by before the next corner, he probably would have lost the opportunity. Had I known it was the last lap, I wouldn't have given him a break. The moral of the story is a defroster can make a HUGE difference in the rain.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[GT240sx]

The rules seem to be pretty clear on component removal due to interference with the installation of safety equipment... mainly the roll cage.

Lets say one of those components that interefered with the roll cage was the blower for the HVAC system. It can be removed to make way for the roll cage but you lose your defrost.

Would it then be legal to add a fan to blow air through the rest of the defrost ducting that was not interferring with the roll cage if the need for defrost occured?

------------------
Russell White
'85 Toyota Supra
ready for ITS in 8 months....maybe

[This message has been edited by GT240sx (edited August 19, 2004).]

[slowguy]

Originally posted by Geo:
The moral of the story is a defroster can make a HUGE difference in the rain.

Great point - for that reason I think i'll keep the AC functional - that'll serve as a great excuse for brining up the rear on those hot days at Road Atlanta. ; )

[Knestis]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> ... Where it says \"heater core shall not be removed,\" most people assume you can remove the heater box as long as you retain the core, i.e., if you had to retain the heater box, it would say \"box\" instead of \"core\". ...</font>

Most people are wrong then. Those specific "thou shalt not remove" statements are the worst possible stoopid move that has ever been perpetrated on club racers by the ITCS, for exactly the reason GRJones describes.

Point of historical significance. The clause requiring the core to stay was added after some people decided that it was a "radiator" and therefore could be modified or replace (as in, replaced by air). That was never the intent of the rule allowing radiator replacement but rather than fixing the wording of the radiator allowance, the core retention piece was added. Two badly written rules do not make one well written one.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited August 19, 2004).]

[Bill Miller]

I've always thought the cage/instrument allowance clause left things wide open. There's nothing that dictates where you put the cross bar(s), should you elect to include them. You could locate them so as to pretty much require the complete dash removal.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I've always thought the cage/instrument allowance clause left things wide open. There's nothing that dictates where you put the cross bar(s), should you elect to include them. You could locate them so as to pretty much require the complete dash removal.

I don't know why it would be wide open. And I cannot remotely imagine any cage that would required the entire dash to be removed.




------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

Just requires a little out-of-the-box thinking George.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

I've pointed this out before but it's been a long time: A rule that says the dashboard may be modified to allow installation of a rollcage tube is very different than installing a rollcage tube to rationalize massive removal of the dash - or any otherwise required component.

K

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

I don't believe that removing massive amounts of the dash is w/in the spirt of the rules, but the way they are currently written, it would be legal.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Just requires a little out-of-the-box thinking George.

Not to start anything, but it sounds more like it requires out-of-the-rulebook thinking.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo:
Not to start anything, but it sounds more like it requires out-of-the-rulebook thinking.

If you're not trying to start anything George, don't!

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608