Removing Parts

[Ron Earp]

I was wondering about removing some parts from the Jensen Healey that I am attempting to prep for ITS. Specifically, the door panels.

I've read the rules and done a search, but I'm still not exactly sure if I should remove them or not.

It appears that if I have a roll cage with NASCAR type side intrusion bars then I can replace the panel with 0.060" aluminum and gut the door. I will have a cage built by a local fellow that does cages for various cars, but, how do I know this cage will fit the letter of the law that will allow removal of the door panel? Door panels don't weigh much, but, they are worth a LOT to JH folks and if I can sell them it'd help the race car fund.

I asked around at VIR this past weekend but it still seems a little bit of a grey area.


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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey

[Diane]

It's not that grey, it's spelled out in the GCR and you actually said it. A quick search of nascar bar or door bar will give you a number of current threads on it.


Diane

[This message has been edited by Diane (edited August 10, 2004).]

[Knestis]

Go back and revisit those pieces of the ITCS. Are the "remove door interior cards" and "cut into the door and remove the glass" clauses part of the same rule? I'm at work and don't have my GCR handy but I THINK that they are two separate issues, and that you can replace the stock pane with aluminum even without running the cage bars into the door. But check first and don't trust my memory.

K

[dickita15]

kirk is right. you can sell the door panels and install .060 alum no mater what the cage. you can gut the drivers side door only if the cage extends into the door. two seperate issues
but kirk and diane are really right when they say don't take anyones word, even mine.
dick

[ITSRX7]

I DO have the GCR in front of me and they are right.

- .060 aluminum replacment on both doors is legal no matter what style driver door bar you have.
- Gutting the door to facilitate NASCAR style bars on the drivers side is also legal
- Do not cut the stock support beam on the door - if you even have one on that car - I know my Sunbeam Tiger doesn't.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Knestis]

Interesting point here about building an "exotic" IT car - those parts that come off are worth way more on the open market than would be door cards off of a Civic, for example.

K

[Ron Earp]

Thanks, that helps! I will re-read again, I was working off of memory this morning when I wrote the question and did not think to check the NASCAR question on the search.

Yes, the parts are worth a lot. I just got $114 for a set of sunvisors, $55 for a console, etc. IF I keep it up then the car might be free!! The bad part is the parts I have to buy tto get the car in racing condition are EXPENSIVE! Bushings, etc. are hard to find and not cheap when compared to a civic, so it probably all works out in the wash.
Ron

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey

[GT240sx]

I have a question related to removing parts not from the doors but from the dash "board". I have tried the search function and it did not turn up anything on the specific definition of dash "board" and the GCR doesn't specifically define it in their dictionary.

I know the dash "board" must remain complete except for any provisions made for the roll cage or driver instruments. What is a proper definition of dash "board"? Where does it end and interior trim pieces begin....below the glove box? below the steering column? or not until you get to a door or an A pillar? I have seen IT cars with nothing below the glove box except a heater core hanging by a zip tie, and I have seen IT cars with everything still under the dash including all trim pieces up to the center console. I guess I am looking for a consensus on the matter, because it seems to be up to interpretation.

Thanks,




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Russell White
'85 Toyota Supra
ready for ITS in 8 months....maybe

[bldn10]

Also note that the rule does NOT say that you can gut the door only "to the extent necessary" to install a NASCAR-type cage. I.e., as long as a bar extends into the door, you can gut it.

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by GT240sx:
...What is a proper definition of dash "board"? Where does it end and interior trim pieces begin....

...I guess I am looking for a consensus on the matter, because it seems to be up to interpretation.

Thanks,

Russell,

I bought my car complete with a whole bunch of tech stickers on the rollbar. Therefore, I assume that what I have is "acceptable". At least down here in South East.

The door (or what's left of it) consists of what you can see from the outside, along with the sides (3 to 4 inches of sheet metal around the edge of where the door panel would be. That's it! (Kind of like a shallow pan on edge) When it's open it flops around all over the place. When it's closed, the NASCAR bars (padding) all but touch the door skin.

As far as the other part, it seems to me that the practical definition of "dashboard" is the horizontal surface above all the gauges, heater controls, etc. My car has zero factory gauges remaining. There are several where the speedo used to be and a few more where the heater controls/radio used to be. About the only remaining "stock" item is the glove box (which is held closed by two bolts with wingnuts on the ends).

I think the line in the GCR that gives all of us that latitude is; "Other than modifications made to mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the remainder of the dash “board” or panel shall remain intact."

Hope this helps.

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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[ddewhurst]

***I bought my car complete with a whole bunch of tech stickers on the rollbar. Therefore, I assume that what I have is "acceptable". At least down here in South East.***

Mike, do you really beleive this is GOOD info to pass on to someone asking for what is legal & what is not legal ? The tech stickers mean NOTHING.

***The door (or what's left of it) consists of what you can see from the outside, along with the sides (3 to 4 inches of sheet metal around the edge of where the door panel would be. That's it! (Kind of like a shallow pan on edge) When it's open it flops around all over the place. When it's closed, the NASCAR bars (padding) all but touch the door skin.***

Mike, where is the "stock side impact beam" ?

Not that I know it all but when WE pass on info WE need to be sure the info WE pass on is good legal information.

Have Fun
David

ps: Production doors are like foil flapping in the breeze with their original hinges.

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Mike, do you really beleive this is GOOD info to pass on to someone asking for what is legal & what is not legal ? The tech stickers mean NOTHING.

David -

What I was attempting to address was the original question; "...I guess I am looking for a consensus on the matter, because it seems to be up to interpretation." I didn't take that to mean "legal". Sorry for the confusion.

I wholeheartedly agree, tech stickers don't mean anything IF you get protested. I was merely adding (perhaps wrongly) the voices of those past scrutineers to the "consensus" since they didn't seem to have a problem with it.

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
ps: Production doors are like foil flapping in the breeze with their original hinges.

Again, I agree completely. I have said it before on this site, but not in this particular thread, so for the record: I AM A NEWBIE. Whatever I am able to offer is from the limited experience I have gained crewing and from crawling in, around and under the car I bought a few weeks ago. I own and have read the GCR, although I can't quote it from memory. I probably mentioned the door because I was quite surprised at how little was left.

I just looked at the GCR, and found the following; "The stock side impact beam, if equipped, and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified."

I WILL check, but apparently my car didn't have one. The outside latch was retained.

Looking back on the thread I probably should have researched a little more. I am one of the fortunate ones who has a PDF copy of the GCR on my computer at work, but who doesn't have a whole lot of practical experience in seeing how the rules get implemented.

Based on the additional information, I would (sincerely) be interested in knowing if you feel my car is illegal in any way.

Thanks!


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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[Greg Amy]

Hi, Mike.

I think the base error is that you're assuming that those tech stickers mean your car was deemed "legal" some time in the past. Unfortunately, that's not true. Those tech stickers simply mean that your car was found to be "safe" for competition.

You see, tech inspectors rarely make judgements based on legality when looking at your car, they are primarily looking for safety issues. First, it's far too difficult to memorize and be familiar with all various classifications and the allowed mods, and second, that's not their responsibility. Further, those stickers are issued, in most cases, without ever looking a the car; they're instead issued when you present your logbook and safety gear for inspection prior to each event. In reality, short of a protest or an impound, the only time a tech inspector sees your car is at the annual inspection which, again, is first and foremost a safety inspection.

So, please do not assume that your car is legal to the rules simply because it has "passed tech." It may very well be legal, but you need to be familiar with the rules to make that determination yourself.

GregA

[ddewhurst]

Mike, I didn't intend to be a dick head. Sorry

I viewed your car identification which is a ITA RX-7 & presumed it would have a side impact beam. My car is a 1985 RX-7 & it has a side impact beam.

Hey 1st gen RX-7 folks did the 1979 through 1982 RX-7's have a side impact beam ? I know the 83 through 85 have them.

Have Fun
David

[GT240sx]

Mike

Thanks for the response. I have helped with tech inspection at IRP and our main concern was safety and as Greg said, there are too many classes to keep up with.

The problem seems to be in the interpretation of the rules and how everyone seems to have a different view on what the rule really says.

Greg
I hope you don't mind me asking and making a reference to the article…but I just got a chance to read the Grassroots Motorsports with your article in it and was looking at a picture of the driver's side of the car. The panels under the steering wheel are not there (maybe always, maybe just because the car was being worked on) and it also looked like the panels on the passenger side were removed also. Would you agree with Mike's definition of the dashboard?

I am asking these questions in an attempt to build a completely legal car, any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,




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Russell White
'85 Toyota Supra
ready for ITS in 8 months....maybe

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by grega:
Hi, Mike.

I think the base error is that you're assuming that those tech stickers mean your car was deemed "legal" some time in the past. Unfortunately, that's not true...

Greg, you are absolutely correct. I DID assume that. What you say makes perfect sense, but I didn't stop to think about them having to deal with rules for 24 national classes, along with all the Regional Only classes (like IT).

I stand corrected.

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Mike, I didn't intend to be a dick head. Sorry
I viewed your car identification which is a ITA RX-7 & presumed it would have a side impact beam. My car is a 1985 RX-7 & it has a side impact beam.

David, A) You weren't. It very well may have. I don't honestly know. I know it's an earlier model (the seller said '81) but a Carfax on the VIN number said 'no such number'.

(That's wierd! On a whim, I just went and looked at the log book. It lists the Make and Model, but no year.)

I'll be curious to see what others say about the '79 through '82.


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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[Greg Amy]

>>> I hope you don't mind me asking and making a reference to the [Grassroots Motorsports] article...

Not at all. In fact, here's some scans of it for reference (scanned and posted with permission of Grassroots Motorsports (http://www.grmotorsports.com)

High resolution version, 2.5MB: http://www.gatm.com/cars/nx2000/GRM-hires.pdf
Low resolution version, 460K: http://www.gatm.com/cars/nx2000/GRM-lores.pdf

>>> ...the panels under the steering wheel are not there...Would you agree with Mike's definition of the dashboard?

First and foremost, remember that rules interpretations from this bulletin board mean exactly what you pay for them: nothing. With that said, I refer you to the rules that state, and I paraphrase, '...all other interior trim panels, except the dashboard, may be removed..." I consider "the dashboard" to be the panel that bolts to the firewall, housing the instrument cluster, sometimes defroster and heater vents, sometimes the radio and heating controls. Therefore, any interior trim panel that does not meet the definition of "dashboard" is removeable.

I do not consider the under-dash trim panels to be anything other than that: trim panels. Same goes for the underdash glovebox and covers. Besides, that stuff is prone to coming loose and falling; don't want it to get tangled up in the feet or bouncing around during my 4-g turns.

While the center console can also be removed, it's unclear to me where the console ends and the dash begins, but I suggest that any console trim can be removed as well. However, for appearance sake, I chose to cut my center console trim off even with the bottom of the dashboard.

These interpretations are purely my own opinion and are not subject to any ongoing arguments from me.

GregA

[GT240sx]

Greg

I fully understand that all of the interpretations of the rules on this site are just that...interpretations/opinions.

I appreciate your response and I agree with your dashboard definition. I keep trying to suppress the urge to scrap every useless piece of the car in order to stay within the rules. You guys have definitely helped.

Thanks,



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Russell White
'85 Toyota Supra
ready for ITS in 8 months....maybe

[CaptainWho]

Our '79 doesn't have a side impact bar in the door ... it's just a skin now since it has NASCAR style in-door intrusion bars. I'm not sure if our '80 has them or not.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing

[Speed Raycer]

Re: 79/80 RX7 side impact beams.... my 80 has them... whether or not they are the original doors... I have no idea.

Re: dashboard.... I once heard someone make the anology of ordering a new dashboard from a dealer... what would come in the box? Obviously, this changes from make to make, but it gives you a good starting point. Glove boxes or doors wont, lower trim panels wouldn't.

That question is my usual argument in the debate about where the dashboard ends and consoles begin (ex. 8?-85 RX7's with hacked off consoles).

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Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

Izzy's Custom Cages