Trial Balloon - Retaining ABS?

[pfcs]

get off it guys! KISS! (keep it simple stupid) ABS doesn't belong in IT. It is simple and sensible to remove. Every ABS master cylinder has 2 circuits that control the brakes in normal fashion should a sensor(s) fail. Standard, simple, sensible race prep is to split system front to rear with a bias valve in the rear circuit, which is plumbing 101-if you can install aeroquipt brake hoses, you can certainly deal with ABS removal, If you can't, maybe you should consider a spec racer.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Phil

[Knestis]

Originally posted by pfcs:
get off it guys! KISS! (keep it simple stupid) ... If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I guess I wonder how it could possibly be any simpler - and cheaper - to just leave a system alone, that a bunch of people spent a lot of energy figuring out. They took 500-level Plumbing classes.

I wonder too about the broad rationale that "ABS doesn't belong in IT." Can you share your thinking as to why?

How about this for a thought experiment: If in fact data were to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a proficient racer could stop faster without ABS than the system could on its own, would that change perceptions of "competitive advantage?"

K

[x-ring]

I've been following this topic pretty closely and don't have too much to add except that I feel like the Comp Board* screwed me over pretty bad with the E36 thing and now you want to give the bimmer boys ABS too?

If in fact data were to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a proficient racer could stop faster without ABS than the system could on its own, would that change perceptions of "competitive advantage?"

I'm sure you could contrive a set of conditions (probably reasonably common conditions) to support this, but under all conditions? I doubt it, unless your definition of 'proficient racer' only includes the top few percent of club racers.

One final thought: In Mark Donohue's book, in the IROC chapter, Mark refers to ABS as the ultimate unfair advantage (or words to that effect).

*NOT the current CRB. I'm cautiously optimistic about the current board; time will tell.



------------------
Ty Till
#16 ITS
Rocky Mountain Division

[pfcs]

My reasons for not wanting ABS in IT: 1/
keeping the class simple and straighfoward-kind of a racecar 101 for people who want cars that are entry level but respond to basic engine and chassis tuning. And please, RX-7 guys, don't start in about free ECUs!
They don't get any more AIR into the engine, do they?
2/ keeping the question of or possibility of a competetive advantage off the table-pfiiff! presto! gone! No one can argue or wonder about it any more. What a relief.

[jlucas]

More food for thought. Grand Am Cup allows ABS or non-ABS at the same weight. World Challange has a 100lb ABS penalty weight.

E36 ITS situation has nothing to do with this. I'm not happy about it either (Integra).

The question is this: Is there a rule that could be implemented that keeps things fair, costs down, and allow newly eligible cars to be added to IT with less modification? If cars are classed properly by the comp board there is no reason why ABS could not be allowed.

Again for some cars, ABS works well at the track; others it's junk.

As I mentioned this issue is only going to get more complex as time goes on. Sooner or later this should be addressed.

[VTECAcuraGSR]

Update**

I removed the four wheel sensors so I am technically legal now, but in my quest to do this right I found a problem. It appears as though most Honda/Acuras do not have the brakes plumbed as Front and Rear. Rather LF/RR and RF/LR. So If I wanted to use the stock lines I would actually need two aftermarket proportioning valves. Or redo the hardlines to Front/Rear. Does anyone have any experience with this?

-Jeremy

[pfcs]

yes; plumb 1/2 mastr cyl to frt, 1/2 to rear via prop valve.

[924Guy]

In spite of racing a car built in the very first days of ABS, I know far more about ABS functioning (along with TCS and ESP/ESC/VSA/VDC/VSC/PSM/whatever you want to all stability control) - I'm an ABS/TCS/ESP engineer at Bosch. Hate to sound full of myself, but there are few others on this forum quite as knowledgeable on the inner workings of the system (a number of my co-workers race IT and occasionally stop in on this forum too).

I state that just to give background and weight to my opinions. If we were racing Showroom Stock cars with stock (original as-delivered) tires, there is no question in my mind that the car with a modern ABS system would have a competitive advantage over older systems or cars without ABS. That's without even going into the subject of electronically-controlled brake proportioning (DRP, EBS, HAB, etc) and what it can do in corners on a modern 4-channel 4-sensor car. It's pretty slick.

But we're not racing SS cars; our cars are modified, with completely different suspension setups, brakes, and tires. I hate to admit it, but all the benefits of ABS and EBD/DRP are pretty much gone with most systems at that point - you've gone way too far from the car on which they were designed to be used. At this point, ABS is only really going to provide a real benefit to the rank rookie who doesn't really know how to use his brakes in all situations. He's not going to become an Auberlen (or Scott just by turning ABS on. The only rare exceptions where ABS is even going to reall help would be on a Porsche race car or the like, delivered with ABS calibrate for race tires, etc. The weight transfer and tire slip characteristics are just too far out of the normal range of tolerances.

So, I have trouble getting that worried about newer cars showing up in the grid with ABS. I know I can still out-brake them. I would recommend making sure that they're allowed to run with it disabled, in fact, for their sake. Now I just have to get off my butt and send in my feedback to the comp board.

Oh, not to get embroiled in an unimportant semantic discussion, but ABS will (or should) optimize the braking force at each and every wheel, given proper input (sufficient pressure at the MC). FWIW, I'd run screaming from any "chipped" ABS-equipped car; knowing how hard it is for us to do the job, I most certainly wouldn't trust code hackers to get it right after the fact, and I'd give any such car a wide berth on track, as I don't think I'd count on them to avoid spearing me at an inoportune time!

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[Knestis]

Thanks for the informed perspective!

K

[Knestis]

One more data point...

I ran yesterday at VIR with the ABS sensors disconnected but otherwise with the system exactly as I've been using it. They were not gawd-awful.

I did have one major lock-up when I got boxed in by a pair of Miati that should have been WAY faster than me into T1 - RR, probably - and I seemed to get a feeling like pad fade late in the 45-min. race. That seems unlikely given that I was running my 100% American Iron pads (they really are pure Fe) so I wonder if I had a pick-up problem from switching them in for my HP+ street/rain pads run in the short morning session...

I still believe that we've got to address this issue applying a paradigm that accepts ABS as the norm rather than an exotic exception on IT-eligible models but newb Golf racers won't be in too deep with the bonehead solution of just unplugging things.

K


[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited August 09, 2004).]