passing under double yellow

[planet6racing]

If people are being put into walls while under double yellow, your steward needs to be pulling some licenses.



------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Tak]

If I'm dicing, and something happens ahead, I wave an arm in the cockpit (briefly). It is both a signal to the driver(s) behind and to the corner workers that I see the situation.

Several drivers in front of me have done this and I've appreciated it. Now I return the favor. I also think it has saved me from getting rear ended at least once.

BTW, my reaction when I see an arm up is to pull out from behind the car in front of me. That gives me more options. I do not automatically back off.

When I'm the one signaling, I put my car where I need to go, at the appropriate pace (often that is race pace).

Remember that the no passing zone is from the flag to the incident.

Tak
#29 ITA
SFR SCCA

[mgyip]

Originally posted by Tak:
If I'm dicing, and something happens ahead, I wave an arm in the cockpit (briefly). It is both a signal to the driver(s) behind and to the corner workers that I see the situation.

I tend to do the same thing but apparently, from the aforementioned discussion, such a move is stupid, potentially misleading to other drivers and not recognized (and thus disallowed) by the GCR. Next time I have a double-yellow situation, I'm gonna "race" the other cars trying to pass me so that my actions won't be misconstrued as being less than uber-competitive.

[dave parker]

Well i have to wade in here.
"I must add that usually brake lights on the guy in front of me is a pretty good indication that he is slowing, and of course my depth perception is still good enough to let me know when I am closing at a faster rate than normal. Hand signals in these events really are superfluous.
GRJ"
I find this statement to be HIGHLY ironic coming from the guy who hit me in the back on the start of the saturday race at VIR. No there was no yellow flag. Both my hands were on the wheel.Perhaps the thirty plus cars trying to funnel through T1 with a car in the grass on the outside had something to do with why we all slowed down. I double checked before and after the race to make sure my brake lights worked.Yes,apologies were made and accepted. No,I am not mad about it. But lets all remember to do what we say we are going to do.

"I'm beginning to wonder what they teach you guys at driving schools these days.
GRJ"
I invite you to come and instruct at the DC Region drivers school on October 30th and 31st at Summit Point. As an instructor you can see first hand what the students are being taught and why. You will also have a chance to offer your years of expirience and give your input. You never know, you might influence someone greatly and learn something in the process. Please feel free to contact me so that we can let the group chief instructor know that you will be attending.
Flame away.
Have Fun
dave parker
wdcr itc#97

[JohnRW]

In the open cockpit SCCA world, (sports racers & lawn-dart formula cars) it's pretty common for drivers to signal trouble ahead by raising an arm/open hand and waiving back and forth. Doesn't necessarily mean that car will brake or even lift much, but it's a general "get your head out of your ass" signal, that those of us behind appreciate.

Spend some time running around with your butt 3" off the ground and you'll start to understand the visibility problems that those cars have. IT cars aren't that much different. Anything that says "HEY - PAY ATTENTION !" to cars behind you is a good thing.

Cite all the GCR sections you want. Those of us who will wave (especially in practice and qualifying) understand that it is a courtesy (and sometime self-preservation), and is appreciated and understood by most drivers. Did it once, witnessed it 3 times last weekend alone, at the Nelson Ledges Nat'l.

Those with a clue do understand what it means.

[planet6racing]

Originally posted by JohnRW:


Those with a clue do understand what it means.

Alright, I'm going to nip this in the bud. Let's not take this down the name calling road or anything like that. This has been a fair discussion of the hand waving and, although heated at times, has not been personal. Let's keep it that way.


------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
[BThis has been a fair discussion of the hand waving and, although heated at times, has not been personal.
[/B]

Please explain how this is "personal". It might be a sweeping generalization, but it certainly isn't "personal".

[grjones1]

Originally posted by dave parker:
Well i have to wade in here.
"I must add that usually brake lights on the guy in front of me is a pretty good indication that he is slowing, and of course my depth perception is still good enough to let me know when I am closing at a faster rate than normal. Hand signals in these events really are superfluous.
GRJ"
I find this statement to be HIGHLY ironic coming from the guy who hit me in the back on the start of the saturday race at VIR. But lets all remember to do what we say we are going to do.

Dave,
I doubt seriously you were the only one that received a gentle nudge in the Group 7 melee at Turn 1 at VIR. I beleive I was touched myself, but I didn't expect any apologies in a situation like that. I expressed regret that I was unable to check up in time to keep from patting your rear end, but that was the extent of my "apology." If you think for an instant that your car is never going to receive a "touch" especially in the large fields in which we are contending, you are in the wrong sport.(By the way had you waved your arm the same thing would have occurred.)
I'm pretty much amazed that someone who filed a wholly unsupported protest for "witnessing" a rough driving incident when the supposed victim of the incident testified that he was never touched would have the nerve to suggest I don't do what I say. I never said I don't make mistakes, if that were the case I'd be driving Formula 1 and not IT. But when I touch someone it's usually an error, not an attempt to push him out of the way. I wish I could say the same for the number of times I've been driven off the racetrack (and by the way, I protested only one when the individual peppered my rear end three times - and the protest was upheld.)

I invite you to come and instruct at the DC Region drivers school.

My services have always been available to instruct, I've only been invited by NASA. I'll be glad to extend those services at the October school. And I always look forward to learning something, perhaps others should keep such an open mind.
G. Robert Jones ITC 22

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by JohnRW:
[B]In the open cockpit SCCA world, (sports racers & lawn-dart formula cars) it's pretty common for drivers to signal trouble ahead by raising an arm/open hand and waiving back and forth.

In your world, where I beleive some cars don't have brake lights and reaction times may not be up to the quickness of the cars, excessive hand signals might be necessary. In the IT world, hand signals that are beyond GCR direction are detrimental (in my opinion).
GRJ

[mgyip]

Originally posted by grjones1:
In your world, where I beleive some cars don't have brake lights and reaction times may not be up to the quickness of the cars, excessive hand signals might be necessary. In the IT world, hand signals that are beyond GCR direction are detrimental (in my opinion).

Per the sacred GCR which has been quoted ad nauseum on this thread, ALL vehicles MUST have at least one working brake light. In the IT world, if hand signals beyond GCR direction are detrimental then the corner workers and stewards should immediately commence a "hand signal" log just as they log metal-to-metal contact - at the end of each session, the offending drivers should be beaten severely with GCRs.

This whole argument is frivolous at best - if a competitor opts to provide additional notification to a fellow competitor, so be it. If you chose to not provide said additional notification, so be it. In other words, who f**king cares - the world will not stop revolving if the competitor in front of me waves a hand or not to notify me of a double-yellow situation.

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by mgyip

I'm sorry but I don't consider it "frivolous" if a guy is signaling there's a problem ahead and I'm tuned to respond that he's signaling to pass him (as was the case described at the begiining of this thread). Somehow this might lead to untoward circumstances.
G

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 21, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 21, 2004).]

[RSTPerformance]

Still wondering.... Did four27 know in advance (before making the pass) about the Full course yellow? I think that is very important when looking at his original question.

Raymond

[mgyip]

Originally posted by grjones1:
I'm sorry but I don't consider it "frivolous" if a guy is signaling there's a problem ahead and I'm tuned to respond that he's signaling to pass him (as was the case described at the begiining of this thread). Somehow this might lead to untoward circumstances.

Hhmm - so what you're saying is that any movement from within the cockpit automatically makes you believe that someone is giving you a passing signal? Just don't get caught out by someone who moves a hand whilst in your line of sight and then drives you off track b/c you took that movement as a passing signal - the GCR is fairly specific about passing signals being clear but is very non-specific about driver notifcations. That's most likely b/c the sport was intended to be "gentlemanly" but at this point in the sport, most of the "gentlemen" have long since retired and the "racers" must have every thought, action and POTENTIAL ACTION spelled out in great detail to avoid conflict.

I have rec'd both passing signals AND waved hands to indicate caution - to date, I've been able to differentiate the two, even "in the heat of battle". In fact, most passing signals appear as little more than a waving hand (except in my case for a certain Mr. Wilson who always receives a certain gesture and who is kind enough to return the same gesture as he passes). If I'm close enough to a competitor that he/she feels obligated to wave a hand to warn me of a double-yellow, I should have seen it myself - if not, shame on me.

[four27]

Great discussion guys, I am the originator and victim of this question. It is obvious with all the talent that responded to this that my case for the hand signal giving me the right to pass has some real support. Will be interesting to see how national sees it. As many of you stated the GCR is the bible and if it aint in there you cant do it. A hand in the air, inside the car, on double yellow means I am disabled and a person may pass. If everyone starts coming up with their own way of signaling folks for different cautions then I see that as a totally dangerious situation. Thanks for the info.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
OK, let me get this straight:

1) No brakes, headed off course.
2) One hand is off the wheel signalling another driver.

Umm, if I don't have brakes, the last thing I am worried about is the person behind me

Bill, not sure if you were addressing this towards my comment. (No quote, but immediately following my post)

If I lost my brakes I would not be raising a hand. I would not be slowing at an abnormal/unexpected rate.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by grjones1:
...excessive hand signals might be necessary.

How would they be excessive if they are necessary???

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by mgyip:
Per the sacred GCR which has been quoted ad nauseum on this thread, ALL vehicles MUST have at least one working brake light

Not sure where you read that.

GCR17.19

All non-Formula cars shall have two operating brake lights. All Formula
(open wheel) and Sports Racer cars shall be equiped with a red tailight...

[apr67]

Corner workers use hand signals also, and that isn't in the GCR. When they tell you to slow down, or point you to the side of the track that is clear.

Lets hope your protest is upheld, and we stop using all hand signals, because some drivers are too busy to understand what is going on.

.. Sheesh. This is turing more and more into kindergarden racing.

[grjones1]

Originally posted by mgyip:
Hhmm - so what you're saying is that any movement from within the cockpit automatically makes you believe that someone is giving you a passing signal? Just don't get caught out by someone who moves a hand whilst in your line of sight and then drives you off track b/c you took that movement as a passing signal - the GCR is fairly specific about passing signals being clear but is very non-specific about driver notifcations. That's most likely b/c the sport was intended to be "gentlemanly" but at this point in the sport, most of the "gentlemen" have long since retired and the "racers" must have every thought, action and POTENTIAL ACTION spelled out in great detail to avoid conflict.

Please explain one more time how I am supposed to differientiate between a waved hand meaning "pass me" and a waved hand meaning "there's a yellow flag ahead"? Not even "gentlemen" are mindreaders. And evidently it does cause confusion because the case in point (with Four27) is just such proof of the confusion. And evidently the steward that penalized Four27 is as incapable of reading and understanding the GCR as mgyip, who evidently does not know the difference between a brake light and a running light. I really don't want to be offensive but if you haven't got it right be gentlmen enough to admit it.
G


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 22, 2004).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
How would they be excessive if they are necessary???

"Excessive" in that they are used beyond what the GCR descibes them to be, and "necessary" because your equipment or lack thereof provides less means for your competitor to comprehend a given situation.
But I don't pretend to know or care about formula cars or drivers. This is afterall an IT forum.
G