passing under double yellow

[four27]

Can anyone tell me if they see much warning of yellow flags to cars behind you by giving some kind of hand signal? Had an interesting situation this weekend where the car in front of me waved his hands up high alot. I thought he was signaling he was broke so I went around him. He says he was making sure I saw yellow flags. After going around him and seeing that he kept going I realized he was trying to signal me for something else and fearing a penalty, I let him go by me, all under double yellow. I then proceeded to get around him in last part of race. I have never seen anyone warn of a yellow flag ahead of me before and in light of the fact that the GCR does not make provisions for warning a fellow driver of a yellow but it does indicate that raising your hand is how you show you are broke down and it is ok to go around.

I am told in oval track and other forms of racing outside of SCCA that warning of flags is common but not in SCCA type racing. I got penalized one racing position.

Any feedback.

[joeg]

Unless he pulled over and basically stopped to let you by, you simply cannot be passing under a yellow.

I give waives all the time if the incident is in front of me and viewable. They are not intended as signals to "come on by" to the cars in back of me.

[dickita15]

I too use hand signal to alert the person behind me something is happening in front. I guess I never thought about it being percieved as "I am broken"
dick

[lateapex911]

I have always given the hand wave as a ..."Heads up dude...I am slowing in a spot that usually don't slow in" FYI kind of gesture.

It's up to you to figure why that may be....and what to do about it.

If I want you by, I will point clearly with my finger.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[RKramden]

Originally posted by dickita15:
I guess I never thought about it being percieved as "I am broken"

And the way one could tell the difference between your being broken and not broken? :-)

IIRC, there are five times that hand signals are to be used (according to the GCR):

Waive-off during a start, (7.5.9)
Signaling to enter the pits, (9.1.3.A)
Indicating the side to be used for a pass, (9.1.3.
Indicating the car is disabled and not going to move, (9.1.3.C)
and with a disabled car not able to keep pace during a full course yellow (9.2.2, 9.4.2.

Can't think of any others right now.

[Quickshoe]

Jake hit the nail on the head.

Most forms of racing ask that drivers get a hand up in the air ANYTIME they are moving much slower than others might anticipate or are preparing to slow much more than others might anticipate.

Could be for a number of reasons.

Some unsportsman-like people have been known to use it during a start to get others behind them to check up for a second until they realize that the guy with his hand in the air has just jumped out to a 2 car length lead...

That's the kind of guy you accidently tap as he's leaving the track with a hand up in the air. When he asks you later what that was all about and how come you didn't back off you just remind him of the story about the little boy who cried wolf

[apr67]

I use the Hand in the Air in a Fist to indicated I am slowing down, usually for a double yellow, or when exiting the track.

Why? Because some idiots (for example this weekend at Moroso) never see the GD flags.

This is a standard racing signal from where I stand, and if I were broken, I would pull to the extreme edge of the track and POINT you by.

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]I use the Hand in the Air in a Fist to indicated I am slowing down, usually for a double yellow, or when exiting the track.

In my 30 years, a hand in the air means "I am entering the pits" or "I am disabled." A point indicates on which side you expect me to pass- that's it, you are not helping the guy behind trying to communicate any other information. A hand in the air, fist or otherwize, has always indicated either "follow me in" or a wave by. Raising your hand to indicate flags are out is indecipherable and you are only begging to be passed. Let the driver behind observe the flags. If he's trying to figure out what you are telling him, he'll probably never see them.
Stewards who don't understand this have never raced or they raced poorly, and they are looking for an excuse to enforce rules without understanding what might be going on out there.

Most drivers develop the skill to handle an incident, i.e., miss an obstacle on the course or judge how to miss a spinning car and refrain from passing until after an incident. If we are signaled in an adequate fashion by the flaggers, we are given time to accomplish all of this. If we are not, we must handle the situation as best we can. A late flag in my experience is why most often people mistakenly pass on yellow and not that we are disregarding the rules. Sometimes we might be given credit for negotiating the incident even in light of passing a car that has slowed too drastically and has created a more complex situation than was necessary.

Yes we slow for yellows to ensure control of the car, but as we all must know "control of the car" is not always decelerating to a snail's pace.

I recommend stewards consider there's more going on out there than always meets the eye especially the eye of cornerworkers who have never enjoyed a race lap in the driver's seat of a race car. And they need to pay as much attention to training their flag people as trying to find excuses to penalize drivers. Then we might all get along more safely.
At any rate: let the drivers drive and the flaggers flag.
GRJ
I must add that usually brake lights on the guy in front of me is a pretty good indication that he is slowing, and of course my depth perception is still good enough to let me know when I am closing at a faster rate than normal. Hand signals in these events really are superfluous.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 19, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 19, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 19, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 19, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 19, 2004).]

[Knestis]

I think this is consistent with what I've seen here but I would never raise a hand for a "normal" yellow situation - double or otherwise.

I would do so if I had to slow up suddenly and was worried that the person behind me might run the heck into my back bumper - same as coming into the pits or under a wave-off situation at a start. But note that this is about what MY CAR is doing, not about what the flags are doing.

I saw more than a few instances of karters using "hand fakes" on starts. "Oh, sorry dude - I thought they were waving it off."

K

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by Knestis:
[Hi K,
Now K if you are last on the grid why are you botering to signal those behind you.
As I said in another post, I really enjoyed meeting you and your wife at VIR.
And guys, K wasn't really last.
G

[apr67]

My hand goes up as I slow down for the double yellow, or entering the pits. I don't bother to look in my mirror, becuase slowing down is the important thing to do. If other cars are close to me, they may be blocked from seeing the flag, and by paying attention you just might save yourself from a DQ for a PUY.

If someone sticks a hand in the air under a double yellow and your first thought is 'point by' then I doubt you are fully paying attention. You should be thinking "maybe he sees something I dont", or "Big Bad Doo doo ahead". After a few seconds, you can see if the car is falling back from other competitiors and asses what the hand signal may really mean.

[m glassburner]

lets see... the single finger salute...helps releive tension.point-by please pass me on the left or right....the left fist out window im pulling the pits.....long straight...karate chop foward stay with me bump draft if you dare....guys thats enough for me!!corner workers are there for a reason..let them do their job if a driver is used to you waving for a yellow....when you dont do it once.....well i dont want to be there...mike g.

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]My hand goes up as I slow down for the double yellow, or entering the pits.

But APR, you don't appear to understand: the GCR states what a raised hand means: "I'm pitting" or "I'M disabled." I have no obligation or time to interpret your hand signals other than what I have been directed they mean. Let's get this straight: my reason for being on a racetrack is to pass the guy I'm behind- that's what racing is all about. Yes safely, but not safely by being a mind reader but by your knowing what the general rules direct. Give me a reason for getting by you by giving me a pass sign and guess what, I'm going to pass.

Please in the event of a yellow flag, I'd rather you keep both hands on the wheel and control your car than your trying to communicate with me something I am responsible for knowing all by myself. If you saw the flag I probably did too. If not then I suffer the consequences.
GRJ

[racer_tim]

I normally wave my hand "inside" the cockpit to warn the person behind me that I see something ahead of me. Whether it be a Double Yellow, or a emergency vehicle, etc.

When I disable myself, I don't "wave" it but try to get it out between the window net and the a-pillar and hold it straight up so they can see it.

That's what I do.



------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[spnkzss]

Now I've only been racing for a little over a year, but anytime a hand goes up it means watch out for whatever might happen. Typically there to make you get out of "racing mode". A finger pointed means pass on which ever side it's on. The GCR might not spell it out that way, but safety ALWAYS comes before winning. At least at the regional level we are just racing for a $15 trophy, not millions of $$$.

It seems to work just fine.

[grjones1]

[B]

Originally posted by apr67:
My hand goes up as I slow down for the double yellow, or entering the pits.

But APR, you don't appear to understand: the GCR states what a raised hand means: "I'm pitting" or "I'M disabled." I have no obligation or time to interpret your hand signals other than what I have been directed they mean. Let's get this straight: my reason for being on a racetrack is to pass the guy I'm behind- that's what racing is all about. Yes safely, but not safely by being a mind reader but by your knowing what the general rules direct. Give me a reason for getting by you by giving me a wave by and guess what, I'm going to pass.

Please in the event of a yellow flag, I'd rather you keep both hands on the wheel and control your car than your trying to communicate with me something I am responsible for knowing all by myself. If you saw the flag I probably did too. If not then I suffer the consequences. If you get bumped, protest me for rough driving, but be darn sure you are not setting yourself up for having slowed too rapidly for conditions - it works both ways. You as a driver have an obligation to act appropriately in a given situation and slamming on your brakes at the waving of a yellow flag is not appropriate, nor is waving your hand and expecting me to know you mean something different from what the GCR tells me you are supposed to mean.
If someone is on your rear bumper coming into a yellow it's a tight situation and your response is slow just enough to be under control but not enough to get slammed. It's tough but that's what racers do: handle tough situations.
GRJ

[grjones1]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
I normally wave my hand "inside" the cockpit to warn the person behind me that I see something ahead of me. Whether it be a Double Yellow, or a emergency vehicle, etc.

When I disable myself, I don't "wave" it but try to get it out between the window net and the a-pillar and hold it straight up so they can see it.

That's what I do.

Tim,
I strongly suggest you keep both arms inside the car and both hands on the wheel as often as possible, especially in a yellow flag situation.

I'm beginning to wonder what they teach you guys at driving schools these days.
GRJ

[racer_tim]

grjones1, I didn't say it was right, I just said it's what I do. I went through drivers school in 1993 and started out as an F&C member in 1978, so I'm not your average newbee.

BTW, I also drive a FWD with a locked front diff. I DO know how hard it is to drive with only 1 hand on the wheel and turn. I failed to mention that I only do this going straight.




------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Quickshoe]

[quote]Originally posted by grjones1:
[b]

Originally posted by apr67:
If you saw the flag I probably did too. If not then I suffer the consequences.
GRJ

GRJones,

That is the problem. If you are glued to my arse and there is "big bad doo doo" ahead which requires me to do something more drastic than a waiving yellow would (which may not even be out yet). We could both, in addition to those involved in the big bad doo doo ahead suffer the consequences.

Some of us only rely on what is in the GCR to control our actions. Others use our experience and common sense to supplement what is in the book. Unfortunately they can't teach common sense and experience at a school.

[spnkzss]

Then maybe the best thing to do under a yellow is to keep both hands on the wheel, lift slightly and get off line. That way you are doing something to keep from getting punted, and you are giving the driver on your tail a chance to see the yellow if they didn't already. If anything, you go off line far enough that will click with the driver behind you that something is not "normal" (as far as normal goes with racing)