passing under double yellow

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]Corner workers use hand signals also, and that isn't in the GCR. When they tell you to slow down, or point you to the side of the track that is clear.

The Corner workers' job is not driving race cars, their job is to communicate with race car drivers or at least some race car drivers. Is that close enough to kindergarden speak?
G

[ITSRX7]

OK, let's let this die. Some use them becasue they think it helps, some get confused by them because they aren't expecting them becasue there is no provision for them in the GCR.

Do what you think is right but don't be surprised when something else happens.

Be safe and have fun.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[mgyip]

Originally posted by grjones1:
Please explain one more time how I am supposed to differientiate between a waved hand meaning "pass me" and a waved hand meaning "there's a yellow flag ahead"? Not even "gentlemen" are mindreaders. And evidently it does cause confusion because the case in point (with Four27) is just such proof of the confusion. And evidently the steward that penalized Four27 is as incapable of reading and understanding the GCR as mgyip, who evidently does not know the difference between a brake light and a running light. I really don't want to be offensive but if you haven't got it right be gentlmen enough to admit it.

I am gentleman enough to admit that the regulations state that brake lights must exist on all NON-FORMULA car and my statment was unfortunately a blanket statement. From henceforth, my statement, as corrected by grjones1 will read: Per the almighty GCR, all non-formula cars must have functional brake lights.

As for interpreting hand signals - if you are incapable of differentiating a "pass me" signal vs a "danger ahead" signal, that's perfectly acceptable because that is adhering to the letter of the law as put forth in the GCR. Other drivers may be capable of differentiating such signals and may be appreciative of the gesture but that's not specifically addressed in the GCR and thus falls into a grey area.

As for a driver who puts other drivers at risk in order to make a hand signal, that's a different issue all together - that's a driver who needs to realize that first and foremost, safety and car control are paramount. Warning other drivers of pending disaster is very secondary.

'nuff said...

[ITSRX7]

The more I think about this, this is what I come up with:

If we are nose to tail and all of the sudden I see someone slow and make a hand signal, there are two scenarios:

1. I haven't seen the double yellows and I will then pop out and probably pass becuase I think you are signaling me that you are broken. This will all probably happen BEFORE the said flagging station because I SHOULD be seeing the same flags you are.

2. I have seen the DY and your hand signals are not needed.

I guess that's just how I see it.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[m glassburner]

Still...unless I missed it somewhere I have yet to see someone explain the hand signals!So I could have a clue of what your talking about...

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
OK, let's let this die. Some use them becasue they think it helps, some get confused by them because they aren't expecting them becasue there is no provision for them in the GCR.

Do what you think is right but don't be surprised when something else happens.

Be safe and have fun.

AB

EXACTLY!!

I'll continue doing it the way I do. Those who understand it might be thankful. Those who don't can wonder what the hell I was trying to tell them.

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
EXACTLY!!

I'll continue doing it the way I do. Those who understand it might be thankful. Those who don't can wonder what the hell I was trying to tell them.

That's fine, but don't be surprised if you are passed under yellow. And the steward reviewing the protest for the pass should not forget to consider the fact that the guy who passed you was misinformed and conforming with the GCR.

G

[Quickshoe]

Jones, seems like we are the only two still talking about this issue, and here I go continuing the madness...

A yellow flag would NOT cause me to slow down MORE rapidly than the competitor behind me would expect. Throughout this post, I've said that I put my hand up anytime I am going to slow more than my competitors might expect.

Maybe we've been arguing this back and forth without really listening to each other?

[four27]

Originally posted by grjones1:
That's fine, but don't be surprised if you are passed under yellow. And the steward reviewing the protest for the pass should not forget to consider the fact that the guy who passed you was misinformed and conforming with the GCR.

G

G Well this has been interesting and I will report outcome when National responds to my appeal. I think SCCA, from the different posts on this thread, has some work to do to educate all on hand signals.Seems a clearer signal like: a downword pointing thumb out the window could mean " I am brokedown" and that raised, waiving hands mean"heads up problem ahead/ flags out" this would accomodate everyones concerns. But for now, the GCR is clear and I hope they side with the decision I made, especially since it had zero effect on the outcome of the race.

[RSTPerformance]

I have been way to busy to respond to these conversations... I still see that four27 hasn't admited weather or not he knew the yellow flag was out when he passed....

no offence four27 but that makes a huge difference in my opinion of your case...

Raymond "Still looking for the facts" Blethen

[joeg]

Four 27--It does not matter what "effect" your pass had on the race; if the yellow was out, you simply cannot pass.

You willlose any protests on yellows where you did a pass and were caught.

[oanglade]

Even if he saw the yellow flag before, his point is that the driver of the car in front of him made hand gestures that he took as to mean that the car was disabled and could not keep up the pace, so he should pass him, which is allowed as per the GCR.


In my opinion, the "catch" is that it is not enough to have the driver wave his hands to let you pass, but the car has to clearly not be able to keep the pace, be off-line and at the side of the road.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[grjones1]

Originally posted by joeg:
Four 27--It does not matter what "effect" your pass had on the race; if the yellow was out, you simply cannot pass.

Joeg,
This is where you and the stewards are wrong: GCR 9.4.2 says YOU CAN PASS ON DOUBLE YELLOW under certain circumstances [When a driver in front raises his hand (to signal disablement)]. Why do you continue to ignore the GCR?
G

[grjones1]

Originally posted by four27:
G Well this has been interesting and I will report outcome when National responds to my appeal. I think SCCA, from the different posts on this thread, has some work to do to educate all on hand signals.Seems a clearer signal like: a downword pointing thumb out the window could mean " I am brokedown" and that raised, waiving hands mean"heads up problem ahead/ flags out" this would accomodate everyones concerns. But for now, the GCR is clear and I hope they side with the decision I made, especially since it had zero effect on the outcome of the race.

I had a similar situation at VIR, and that's why I'm sticking up for you four27, and more importantly you were in the right. Stewards don't have any more business ignoring the rules than drivers do.
I'm afraid however that I would be against adding any more hand signals. It's obvious some drivers can't use the ones we have now correctly.
Good luck on your appeal, and if it fails I'll be writing letters. And by the way thanks for fighting the good fight.
G. Robert Jones

[Geezer]

From GCR 9.2.2:

"When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signalling vehicle..."

My reading of this would be that the signal for a disabled car under a double yellow is all three actions described above; raising a hand, pulling to the side of the course, and staying off the racing line. Raising a hand alone would not suffice.

Also note there is at least one other instance where a driver would raise a hand under double yellow; during an aborted start or restart (7.5.9).

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 28, 2004).]

[oanglade]

Originally posted by grjones1:
Joeg,
This is where you and the stewards are wrong: GCR 9.4.2 says YOU CAN PASS ON DOUBLE YELLOW under certain circumstances [When a driver in front raises his hand (to signal disablement)]. Why do you continue to ignore the GCR?
G

It is not enough for the driver to raise his/her hand for it to be legal to pass him/her under full course yellow.


Several things need to happen:

9.2.2
When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle.


So:
1) The car must not be able to keep the pace.
2) The driver must raise his/her hand.
3) The car must be pulled to the side of the course.
4) The car should stay off the racing line.

This is a list of things that must happen before the the car can be passed under double yellow. It doesn't say that the driver can choose some of these items and not others.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[Geezer]

Originally posted by oanglade:

It is not enough for the driver to raise his/her hand for it to be legal to pass him/her under full course yellow.

Copycat

Another point is that if one does see the double yellow, one will gain nothing by hurrying to pass a disabled car, or one thought to be disabled. The Starter will (or should, anyway) make sure the field is properly formed before restarting the race, and no position or distance will be lost.

[oanglade]

I think that right there is the key.

I mean, I am so paranoid about passing another car under full course yellow, even if the driver was giving hand signals... I've waited until I saw the car crawling by the side of the road and it was really obvious.


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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Geezer:
Copycat

Another point is that if one does see the double yellow, one will gain nothing by hurrying to pass a disabled car, or one thought to be disabled. The Starter will (or should, anyway) make sure the field is properly formed before restarting the race, and no position or distance will be lost.

Well Geezer and Orangeade, You certainly are good at quoting the GCR.

First if the guy was "keeping pace," you wouldn't be able to pass him anyway- under yellow, none of us are in race mode and probably wouldn't dice to get by someone who is raising his hand for reasons other than for what he is supposed to raise his hand. And if he is not disabled, why is he raising his hand? (To tell us we are under yellow? He's not supposed to do that and if he does, we have no reson to comprehend his signal- it's not in the book.
As far as 'moving over and leaving the racing line, that's all pretty subjective: suppose he's already over and exactly what is the "racing line" on a straight? Methinks you are grasping at straws.

And evidently you have not experienced too many restarts on an all couse yellow: starters have never in my experience waited for the field to "reform" before they dropped the green for a restart- just doesn't happen in other than after a wave-off on the initial start: the starter gets a call from the tower to restart on the next pass of the leader, and the starter upon seeing the race leader drops the green, regardless of whether or not the backmarkers have caught up. That's the real world of SCCA racing.

RST,
Doesn't matter if he knew there was an all course yellow: If he assumed the guy was signaling "disabled," according to the GCR, he can pass under double-yellow and if he was'nt under yellow, he could pass anyway. What's your point?

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

First it is "why do you continue to ignore the GCR?"

Then it is "you sure are good at quoting the GCR"

And it's called grasping at straws

--Daryl DeArman


[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited May 28, 2004).]