passing under double yellow

[grjones1]

Good luck in NASA Geezer. (I'm sure you'll never be tagged in a NASA race - sure.)
Have you considered vintage racing- the one's that only allow passing on the straight?

And I guess I can still tell the difference between someone scratching and someone waving.

Agree or disagree, if you had been my student and had taken your hand off the wheel to scratch your chin in a yellow flag situation instead of maintaining control of your car, I would have flunked you when I instructed for NASA.

G

[moto62]

Wow! this thread has taken some interesting twists and turns and a few folks have given their own opinions for different situations concerning the double yellow flags. First, I don't normally get involved in discussions of this nature but this time I will. Quickshoe, Ony, Geeser, Jake, Dick and anyone who is agreeing with you guys, I will race with you guys anyday. Four27, Grjones1, and anyone else who agrees with these guys, You people are dangerous. As n far as hand signals, a fist up as I approach pit in would probably mean that I'm going into the pits. Anywhere else on the track, you'll get a wave from me if I see a situation where I may need to slow down, like approaching a yellow flag, or a deer crossing or whatever. Now, lets get to the point. I see a double yellow flags. You're gonna get a wave from me weather the GCR says to do so or not. If that is not an indication to you that I am slowing down, then you need to go race someplace else. If I gave you a wave and you assumed that it means I am becoming disabled and you go zooming by, then more power to you. I won't have to pass you again because the stewards will throw you back a few positions for passing under the yellow anyway. Now I agree thatsometimes on a FCY you may have a car/driver who isn't making any real effort to catch the field but thats just tough do do. You have to stay behind that dude or dudette unless you get the "I'm disabled" signal. There is no other reason that will justify you passing the slow car under a FCY.
The GCR has been quoted here a few times and someone mentioned that if they slowed then got rearended, they would file papers? Something about racing room. Lets use myself as an example. If we are racing, you in front of me by a couple of feet, you see a yellow, you lift. Chances are, you'll get a love tap. Same situation, you get on the binders, you're gonna get drilled by me. A quick wave before you get on the binders, I would probably start slowing down before you do and avoid any kind of contact. I believe the GCR defines racing room as three inches from your competitors bumper if your behind him and one foot away if you are side by side. Any takers?
Ray

[grjones1]

Four27, Grjones1, and anyone else who agrees with these guys, You people are dangerous.

I won't reiterate the thread again to answer your comments. But I will say that I have raced since 1971 and put one car in front of me off course in perhaps 150 races. And that individual checked up at such a rate that no one could have missed him. I regret you consider me "dangerous."

[apr67]

I think this thread is important. It shows that some things that we each take for granted we should think about.

I will still continue to use a rasied fist to indicate that I am slowing for a non-normal reason. I will still point drivers by when I want them to pass me on a certain side. And I will still wave to the flag stand and the corner when I need them to know that I saw a flag (been talked to by the stewards that we must acknologe flags more than once).

But if you mistake that for a 'please pass' under yellow, I will try to inform you of your mistake.

[RSTPerformance]

I am with APR67... only I will take it one step further... I will protest you if you pass me under yellow, wether my hand is up or not, or if I slow faster than you... I protested 9 people last year, and I will do it again this year If you pull 4 wheels off in the grass and let me back bye, then no protest, and/or if you let me pass back when the green flies, then you are also safe... Oh wait the only other way to be safe is to get me before I make it to the stewards stand.

Raymond "I hope I never miss a yellow and get bit back in the but " Blethen

PS: My opinions actions in this matter may be against some of the members at RST Performance Racing, however I have been past to many times under yellow.

[ddewhurst]

I been reading, reading & reading some more & I got to tell ya all a little TRUE story.

Last year at Road America during a Q session approaching the Kink the YELLOW is waving. The kink is HIGH SPEED with the down side BLIND. I put an open hand up & slow the car down. There is dirt, grass & stuff all across the track with a really messed up car sitting drivers right as this dirt bag in Datsun never lifted blows past me. The Kink is FULL speed slight left & I'm told at the Kink the back goes & you wind up backwards on drivers right per this cars restingg position. & I can say the rear likes to come loose.

Anyway let's jump ahead to the paddock at session end. The guy is located near my area. I walk over to talk to him about the YELLOW & before I am finished explaining the situation he says I NEVER PASSED YOU & his female friend sitcks her 2 cents in & says the same thing just like she was riding in the car.

Nuff said
David

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited June 01, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited June 01, 2004).]

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I protested 9 people last year, and I will do it again this year
_____________________________
How many protests did you win?
GRJ

[grjones1]

David,
Obviously, raising your hand didn't do much good, and you would have been better served using both hands to control your car.
GRJ

[RSTPerformance]

I would have easily won as it was all on incar video... No "hands in the air" type of issues, just plain "black and white" passing under yellow... So somewhat of a different situation.

Some of the drivers were told that they were going to get points on license and probation... Because of some incorrect stewarding (untimely) final results were posted. My protest was more of a wake up call to the stewards that flaggers and drivers were not "keeping it safe" or "fair" on the track so in the end I did drop the protest as my point was made. That was my goal.

Before in these posts I repeatedly asked if four27 had seen the yellow prior to his/her pass, simply because I would have liked to have made the point that he/she should have seen the yellow... and I would have asked to dig deep in his/her thoughts to see if he/she still would have passed or if he/she would have waited to be sure the car was truly disabled (second wave bye?). Because I never got a clear answer, I would guess that he/she never saw the yellow and probably would have acted differently if he/she did see the yellow. A mistake was made, and I don't think the driver is unsafe, although I do think that he/she is guilty of passing under yellow. Good luck in the appeal.

I many times acknowledge flags (any chance to wave to corner workers and fans I take). if you mistaken that for me being disabled that will be your own mistake.

I think this discussion has a simple resolution... Be sure the car is disabled and it is obvious to the OUTSIDE observer before making this type of pass under yellow.

Good luck with future passes!!!

Raymond

[grjones1]

And Raymond,
My major point was that most of the people ready to judge four27 guilty had not considered the wave by rule under double yellow. I will concede that waving as it is practiced is of course usually discernible, but at the same time many as myself treat it as a wave by as the GCR allows it on many occasions and may pass instead of waiting for the waver to pull off course. If we don't see yellows or if we are under DBY, the car has slowed and is on the edge of the course, we are pretty much informed that he is disabled and we may pass. If there are no yellows and he waves, again we may discern he is disabled and we may pass (whether he waves or not we're racing and we can pass anyway.) If I see a wave I'm not going to automatically assume he is simply warning me of a problem, that's not in the GCR and too many drivers would use the wave to put off my pass (those cagey old reprobates). So again (and I'm sure to the liking of all who are reading this) for the last time - drivers are better off using both hands to drive their cars and not to attempt to send what can be misinformation to the guys behind.
GRJ

[four27]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I have been way to busy to respond to these conversations... I still see that four27 hasn't admited weather or not he knew the yellow flag was out when he passed....

no offence four27 but that makes a huge difference in my opinion of your case...

Raymond "Still looking for the facts"

Blethen

I hadnt seen a yellow flag yet because I hadnt come to the corner yet but I did see the yellow lites (indicating yellow flags ahead) and then a few seconds later when I closed in on the other car that is when I saw the btake lites and in cockpit waiving of hands.

[four27]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I left out 9.1.1.c because it just didn't seem pertinent. There's been no suggestion of attempted blocking in the case at hand and I wouldn't be doing it in the situation that I anticipate above.

Remembering that this is one of those situations we talked about at VIR - an academic online discussion rather than "real life" - I didn't say anything about locking up brakes going into T1 five-wide on a start.

The situation that I describe is the type I mentioned earlier, where I might breathe the throttle where someone else expects me to be hard on the gas. No brake lights and a sudden lack of acceleration on my part, compounded by a guage or mirror check on the other's make it relatively easy for the him to miss out on what is up and run up my backside.

THAT'S the kind of situation in which I would wave - the kind of situation that it's now being suggested that I had BETTER NOT.

If I get rear ended in that situation, it's not a "racing incident." It's the following driver not avoiding physical contact (9.1.1.a.), failing to give me racing room (9.1.1.b.), and not executing a pass safely (9.1.2) due to his error. I'd rather help him NOT make it.

I've alluded to it but not said it straight out - even if the intent WAS to signal a busted car, I think that it's incumbent on the passing driver to look for more evidence that a car is disabled before passing it, particularly under a double yellow where the few seconds required to assess the situation won't have a drastic cost.

Further - like some others here, I think - I'm left with doubts that the passing driver in this case actually knew that the yellow was out before executing the move.

I don't have a lot to go on so this is a huge supposition but it's not hard to imagine that the sequence of events went more like, (a) guy in front lifts for yellows, ( he waves his hands to alert following guy, © following guy passes leading guy (due to reduced pace) and sees hand waving after committing to the move, (d) passer sees yellows, realizes mistake, and tries to undo his error by letting the other guy back by, (e) race ends, (f) passer-under-yellow takes advantage of passee's good intentions and makes a case after the fact after checking the GCR - probably after the stewards' actions against him - and finally, (g) he posts his question here to bolster both his case and the belief that he's been wronged.

Sound plausible?

Of course, I could be very wrong.

K

K-- During the post race impound where the discussions took place on this issue and where I was penalized one position, no one cited the GCR. I did not even realize the GCR dealt with this so directly until I got home that night. Had it not, Iwould have acceppted the locals decision and forgotten about it. My only thought at the time of the race and afterword during the impound was that you can pass a disabled car I thought under all conditions but a red flag. Otherwise, everyrace would come to a halt everytime a car breaks down. So, the language in the GCR requires a judgement call. There was no question in my mind he was broke. In 4 years I have never been guilty of a flag infraction or even talked to in impound.

Every driver in the situation I was in as to make a judgement call. I dont think anyone would wait for the car ahead to come to a complete stop. The driver I had passed had hit the wall hard the day before and I remember thinking that something must of broke loose.

This discussion might be out of order while this thing is in appeal and I had no idea it would prompt such a lively discussion. But, the facts I gave for the impound folks and the appeal are the same and are not in dispute so the discussion seems appropriate. 1) I did pass intentionally on a double yellow 2) the driver I passed did have brakes on and was waiving his hand (s). It is also interesting that in the souble flag section they dont refer to slowing down and pulling over and waiving rather they refer to a signal. Are they referring to all three signals? one signal?

The driver I passed is a top notch guy and driver and on one hand I appreciate his signal but I asked him after the race to not bother signaling me in the future as I am responsible for my own flag recognition. Frankly, the fewer signals from other drivers allows me to concentrate on the track and the fast pace of thing.

My main reason for the appeal is , especially after talking to local drivers, is to clarify this situation. The number of responses to this thread would seem to justify my thought that it needs clarification.

thanks for your input

[Knestis]

Thanks for the clarification...

K

[grjones1]

four27,
You have presented your case certainly better than I have, and I applaud you.

If your appeal fails, you can be sure there will be at least one hot letter demanding clarification. These things need to be attended to by National and not left to distortion and misuse by me or anyone else.
G. Robert Jones

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 01, 2004).]

[four27]

Originally posted by grjones1:
four27,
You have presented your case certainly better than I have, and I applaud you.

If your appeal fails, you can be sure there will be at least one hot letter demanding clarification. These things need to be attended to by National and not left to distotion and misuse by me or anyone else.
G. Robert Jones

Robert, Thanks for the support. Will be interesting to see what happens. If it is rejected I sure hope we get a clarification other than "not well founded"

[four27]

Originally posted by grjones1:
four27,
You have presented your case certainly better than I have, and I applaud you.

If your appeal fails, you can be sure there will be at least one hot letter demanding clarification. These things need to be attended to by National and not left to distotion and misuse by me or anyone else.
G. Robert Jones

Robert, Thanks for the support. Will be interesting to see what happens. If it is rejected I sure hope we get a clarification other than "not well founded"

[RSTPerformance]

Four27...

Thanks for the update, and answering my question!!! I am pleased or happy that you new a yellow was out. You mention you were not at the station yet... if you made the pass before the station it is legal right?

And I also want to thank you for telling the driver not to signal a yellow flag to the cars behind. I have certainly used yellow flags to my advantage, and I encourage anyone else to, just do it safely. I agree that a hand signal to tell another driver about a yellow is unnecessary and confusing. From what I have herd I would have probably just pulled out from behind the front car to get a clear view of the track to see what was going on (preferably in site of flag station). If the pass was made before the station (or lights) then I think you have another argument on your side.

Again it wasn't me, so I can not say exactly what I would have done.

I also want to say I didn't mean to seem harsh with you (or against you) but in my mind it makes a big difference (positive) that you new that a yellow was out, and made a safe pass even under the "yellow" conditions... IE: you were aware of what you were doing, thought it was correct, and did it safely.

I commend that, to many people are unaware of what is going on infront or behind them, I thought for a bit you might have been one of them But your not!!!

Raymond "I like to wave to the workers, not other drivers" Blethen

[dickita15]

[quote]Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
[B] You mention you were not at the station yet... if you made the pass before the station it is legal right?

Uh, no. you can legally race to the flag under a local (single) yellow flag, but when you see a double yellow the entire course is a no passing zone. you must assume there is a flag behind you as well.

dick

[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited June 02, 2004).]

[ddewhurst]

***Obviously, raising your hand didn't do much good, and you would have been better served using both hands to control your car.
GRJ***

Using your word. OBVIOUSLY I raised my hand full well knowing my car was safely under control using one hand. Take some of your GREAT knowledge & teach some of the dumb a$$'s that are on the tarck.

I should have known better than to post on this subject because the results are just like pi$$ing in the wind.

Have Fun
David

[apr67]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***Obviously, raising your hand didn't do much good, and you would have been better served using both hands to control your car.
GRJ***

Gee. Maybe you need to go back to driving 101. I seem to be able to control the car with one hand, while shifting with the other, while pulling a bit over 1g and dicing in turn 12 at Road Atlanta.

Raising my balled fist for a few seconds, while driving in a straight line and braking should be a no brainer.

Maybe I am just a better driver than I thought.

Alan