passing under double yellow

[grjones1]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
Well, this certainly got cleared up in the September Fastrack, didn't it...

Oh well. I earnestly believe we would take a giant step forward if one time the appeals people would make things at least as unclear as they began rather than blurring the issue beyond all possible resolution.

That decision makes about as much sense as declaring a 2.0 liter, 10:1 compression, 4-wheeled disc braked, aerodynamic, and tri-linked rear suspensioned Beetle an ITC car.
Volkswagen has once again exercised its influence upon SCCA decisions. It's bad enough they get an extra 100 cc's for their Sciroccos and cams that never saw a production Rabbit. There goes the neighborhood. Anyone want to buy a well developed Fiesta for Driver's school, I've have officially become outdated?

G. Robert Jones

[apr67]

Jones.

Nice cross flame bait.

And what makes a NB aerodynamic?

[grjones1]

Originally posted by apr67:
Jones.

Nice cross flame bait.

And what makes a NB aerodynamic?

Compared to a 142 Volvo and my Fiesta the NB is plenty aerodynamic.
GRJ

[lateapex911]

Jeeez...it's spreading like a heavy gas!

Lets keep the Beetle crying game to the proper thread, eh?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[four27]

Ok this issue is dead but here is my last coment.

the decision made by the appeals court did surprise me and some of the facts they stated were not what I heard and said at the track. AT NO TIME DID ANYONE ASK ME AT THE TRACK IF i SAW THE DOUBLE YELLOW NOR DID I TELL THEM I SAW IT OR NOT. I think someone at the track would have said to me" If you blew the yellow it is moot about the mechanical breakdown issue" It would have been stupid to tell them I did not see the double yellow and then protest the mechanical breakdown issue. If it happened as reported I would have cheerfully accepted the loss of position. I certainly would not of protested the mechanical breakdown signal if I had missed the flag. Not sure where the local Steward got his info but it wasnt from me. And, if the facts were as the SOM says, why did the local protest court change my penalty from DQ to loss of one position? I plan on asking the SOM the above questions. I mean if I admitted I had blown the double yellow that is as blatant as it gets and with the SCCA position of getting tough on yellow flag violations, why the softer penalty?

Somehow this went from interpretation of a factual issue to a credability issue.

[grjones1]

four27,
Would you believe sometimes many in the SCCA have such large egos they cannot allow themselves to acknowlege truth, let alone admit a mistake. As soon as I recover from this reclass of the NB, I'll be requesting a clarification on the wave-by situation. My sympathies are with you, but consider it a victory in that at least they reduced the penalty.

G. Robert

[grjones1]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Jeeez...it's spreading like a heavy gas!

Lets keep the Beetle crying game to the proper thread, eh?

Sorry you are offended by more than one subject at a time Jake. Write some more user manuals. You need the practice.
GRJ

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by grjones1:
Sorry you are offended by more than one subject at a time Jake. Write some more user manuals. You need the practice.
GRJ

Actually, I don't think I do! Looks like you got it! Whoo Hoo!

Point being that this thread has NOTHING to do with the New Beetle....You started another thread for that. Sticking to it makes the moderators job a whole lot easier.

(Although the moderator has a long leash here at IT.com)



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[four27]

Originally posted by mgyip:
Per the sacred GCR which has been quoted ad nauseum on this thread, ALL vehicles MUST have at least one working brake light. In the IT world, if hand signals beyond GCR direction are detrimental then the corner workers and stewards should immediately commence a "hand signal" log just as they log metal-to-metal contact - at the end of each session, the offending drivers should be beaten severely with GCRs.

This whole argument is frivolous at best - if a competitor opts to provide additional notification to a fellow competitor, so be it. If you chose to not provide said additional notification, so be it. In other words, who f**king cares - the world will not stop revolving if the competitor in front of me waves a hand or not to notify me of a double-yellow situation.

You would care if it cost you the race. the GCR which we are supposed to regard as a bible makes no provision for waving off a competitor for a yellow flag. It clearly does make such a provision for a mechanical breakdown. If the mechanical breakdown provision were not in the GCR I would have no problem with a driver signalling for a yellow flag. Bottom line-- do we follow the GCR or not? If not I would like a copy of the other rule book.

[zracer22]

Holy Crap!!! As I read this thread, i was forming my reply about yellow flags and passing. But after the last 10 or so posts, I forgot what I was going to say.

Yellow flags and passing: This isn't rocket science. If there is a yellow flag...don't pass! If passing is absolutely unavoidable under the yellow, then it will be obvious to the corner worker. If you "think" a driver is waiving you past don't pass. If you "know" a driver is waiving you past, than go ahead and pass.

Think!!!! After all, what is more important; one finishing position or someone's life? Three years ago I was hit in T1 at MidOhio under a waiving yellow flag. The overall race leader thought it was more important to keep the lead than it was to lift and be safe. End result was my car totalled, his car totalled, a fire, and many persons being put at risk.

Quite frankly, it concerns me that a licensed racer needs to ask "when is it ok to pass under yellow?"

The disabled car theory is silly. We have a flag for that also. FYI, that flag is white!

If you have to ask yourself, "should I or shouldn't I pass" don't. It situations mandating a pass under yellow, "should I or shouldn't I pass" won't enter your mind, you will be busy avoiding the car in question.

Back to the VW Beetle: Is that the E36 Beetle that we're discussing?

[grjones1]

Originally posted by zracer22:

The disabled car theory is silly. We have a flag for that also. FYI, that flag is white!

[/B]

We have a rule for passing under yellow also: it's when a competitor slows and raises his hand indicating he is disabled. This is not a "theory", it's a rule!.
GRJ

[four27]

Originally posted by zracer22:
Holy Crap!!! As I read this thread, i was forming my reply about yellow flags and passing. But after the last 10 or so posts, I forgot what I was going to say.

Yellow flags and passing: This isn't rocket science. If there is a yellow flag...don't pass! If passing is absolutely unavoidable under the yellow, then it will be obvious to the corner worker. If you "think" a driver is waiving you past don't pass. If you "know" a driver is waiving you past, than go ahead and pass.

Think!!!! After all, what is more important; one finishing position or someone's life? Three years ago I was hit in T1 at MidOhio under a waiving yellow flag. The overall race leader thought it was more important to keep the lead than it was to lift and be safe. End result was my car totalled, his car totalled, a fire, and many persons being put at risk.

Quite frankly, it concerns me that a licensed racer needs to ask "when is it ok to pass under yellow?"

The disabled car theory is silly. We have a flag for that also. FYI, that flag is white!

If you have to ask yourself, "should I or shouldn't I pass" don't. It situations mandating a pass under yellow, "should I or shouldn't I pass" won't enter your mind, you will be busy avoiding the car in question.

Back to the VW Beetle: Is that the E36 Beetle that we're discussing?

The white flag is displayed by a corner worker--not a racer. Read the GCR -- clearly sets out the provision for passing under double yellow. What you are saying is if a car breaks down on a double yellow you and the other racers have to pull in behind him and wait for a white flag just to be absolutely certain. Lets face it all drivers must make a decision when a car ahead is brtoke down as to when to proceed around him and continue under caution behind the pace car. the GCR makes good provisions for this and I thought I was following them.

You should also know that the first SCCA national person who reviewed my case thought I had an excellent point. Obviously there are is many theories and posit0ons on this point. I would still like SCCA to clarify the waving hand rule. It is not the outcome of this race I an concerned about it is the principal of the SCCA not taking this oppurtunity to give their take on the situation. Even the Supreme Court of the US explains their reasons and the Why behind their opinions and that is for the sole reason that we citizens have a guide for expected behavior when we are confronted with the same situation.

[zracer22]

Originally posted by four27:
You would care if it cost you the race.

That's exactly what my last post was refering to. I would care a lot more if it cost me a leg, arm, life or my race car!

We have yellow flags for one purpose, and that is to keep everyone safe. In your situation, you "thought" and you thought wrong. Result was your pass under a yellow, and then you waiving him past under the same yellow.

Originally posted by four27:
What you are saying is if a car breaks down on a double yellow you and the other racers have to pull in behind him and wait for a white flag just to be absolutely certain.

No that's not what I'm saying. If a car breaks under double yellow what's the big hurry about getting around him? You passed because you "thought" he was waiving you by. Not because you knew he was broke. Had he been broke, it would have been quite obvious after a couple hundred more yards and then everyone could go around him. It was a full course yellow, you had nothing to lose by being patient.

[zracer22]

Originally posted by grjones1:
We have a rule for passing under yellow also: it's when a competitor slows and raises his hand indicating he is disabled. This is not a "theory", it's a rule!.
GRJ

No, here's what the rules say.
NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still the same "SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING."

9.2.2 ".....Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that they are disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side AND staying well of the racing line"

No where does it say you wave your hand to indicate that you are disabled. Three actions make it clear; raising hand, moving over and staying WELL off the line. In this case the driver didn't do any of these.

[This message has been edited by zracer22 (edited July 26, 2004).]

[zracer22]

Where did racers get the impression that we weren't supposeed to slow down for yellow flags, either standing, waiving or double? This notion that it's OK to maintain race speed thru a yellow flag is pathetic. We've all heard someone talking about how a standing yellow doesn't mean slow down, it only means that there is something a car off of the track so don't pass. The rules are quite clear. If you see yellow, SLOW DOWN and DON'T PASS.

Come on guys....this is club racing. We do this for fun, not for fame, fortune and women! Our rules aren't the same as some pro racing rules. The only thing we have on the line is our lives and our cash, and we risk those for the thrill of racing. Our safety rules are there to make our hobby (not profession) as safe as possible. So a yellow flag costs you a race or a couple positions, big damn deal! At least you are driving your car onto the trailer at the end of the event and will be back again for the next race!

Yeah, maybe I am sounding a little pig-headed about this. Let's see how you sound after you have to have your car lifted onto your trailer because some knucklehead didn't slow down at a yellow flag!

[CaptainWho]

Originally posted by zracer22:
The rules are quite clear. If you see yellow, SLOW DOWN and DON'T PASS.

Well, in practice, the DON'T PASS part is required, while the SLOW DOWN part can sometimes be waived. I mean, there's slowing down, and there's SLOWING DOWN. Sunday during one of the regional races at Road Atlanta, we had a full course caution (double yellow), with the safety car out, at one point due to a serious, car-on-fire-on-the-track incident.

A group of four cars was just in front of the overall leader when the double yellows came out. The caution situation took several laps to resolve, and those four cars (actually, the first of the four) was not even (apparently) attempting to close the gap to the pack, which was the best part of a two-point-five mile track.

I guess it was a problem for the emergency workers, having to dodge and direct two separate packs on the track, or maybe it just aggravated someone in the tower, I don't know. But Race Control had the corners signal to those four (I think it was four) drivers to close up on the pack (I was on comm, so I heard the 'command' directly with my own ears). To regain that amount of space meant that those four guys hauled ass when they weren't in the vicinity of the incident. It only took a lap or two for them to close up on the pack once they caught on to all of the hand waving from the corner stations.

They'd already been completely around the course for two or three laps under full-course caution, behind the safety car, so they knew exactly where the incident was, they didn't race, nobody tried to pass, and it was all good.

The moral of the story is, as stated before, there's slowing down and being cautious, and there's SLOWING DOWN and potentially being a problem. It all depends on the context.

BTW, the difference between theory and practice? In theory there isn't a difference, in practice, there is.

In that same incident, we had a pass under way at our corner as the flags came out. It was so close that with a Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball, you couldn't tell who was in front at the time the flags came out, especially if you were involved in hoisting the flags and listening on the comm and grabbing flags, and communicating with your partner on the corner.

Apparently, the fellow making the pass got worried that he'd passed under the yellow (we couldn't tell, and didn't call him in). The next corner saw him letting the other car back past him, thinking there might have been a pass under yellow. Instead of immediately jumping his feces, the other turn told Control they'd like to confer with my corner when the time was right.

Things were pretty squirrely for several minutes on the net, then Control let me and the next turn talk directly. He told me what he'd seen, my partner and I compared notes between us and with the other corner's description, told him what we'd seen, and we all agreed that it'd been a righteous action.

We agreed that we didn't feel an infraction had occurred and safety wasn't compromised, Control listened to the whole exchange, noone said another word about it, the Chief Steward didn't query us, and AFAIK the driver wasn't sure we'd even noticed.

So, I guess the point of this (long) missive is that it all depends on context. Working corners has given me a whole new view of the flags as they affect me when driving. Safety is the most important thing, and a bit of caution and discretion go a long way in that regard. But you can't get so wrapped up in a fixed interpretation of ambigous rules that nothing positive happens, and the rules can only be ambiguous, unless they're updated hourly and run to many volumes.

Net-net, everyone has to exercise good sense and reasonable judgement for this stuff to work out at all. And people that consistently don't exercise good sense and reasonable judgement must be educated or expelled.

I'll give every driver one rule of thumb, though. If the yellow flag is waving, something serious is about to appear in your windshield, or one of us "white suits" is out there assiting one of your colleagues. Waving yellow is a more immediate threat in most circumstances than even red, because waving yellow means it's RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU! :-)

And if you hit me, I'll spit on your dog. After I get out of the hospital. And if it's worse than that, I'll h'aint you. ;-)

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing

[grjones1]

Originally posted by zracer22:
If a car breaks under double yellow what's the big hurry about getting around him? you had nothing to lose by being patient.

Zracer22,
Wow. I'm really impressed with your ability to read minds. And where in this whole discussion did anyone say you aren't supposed to "slow for a yellow"??!!! Please read before you comment.
And the "big hurry" is about losing 200-300 yards on the lead pack. Yes we want to be as safe as possible, but if you are not in this sport to race and to simply be safe, I suggest you play golf. But be sure to duck when someone yells "four" or waves a yellow flag.
GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by zracer22:

Yeah, maybe I am sounding a little pig-headed about this. Let's see how you sound after you have to have your car lifted onto your trailer because some knucklehead didn't slow down at a yellow flag!

...easy...that's not what happened to you at LRP...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[zracer22]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
...easy...that's not what happened to you at LRP...

AB

I've never been to LRP!

[zracer22]

Originally posted by CaptainWho:
Well, in practice, the DON'T PASS part is required, while the SLOW DOWN part can sometimes be waived. I mean, there's slowing down, and there's SLOWING DOWN. Sunday during one of the regional races at Road Atlanta, we had a full course caution (double yellow), with the safety car out, at one point due to a serious, car-on-fire-on-the-track incident.

Now that sounds like a bad call by race control. Car on fire on track should be a red flag. But putting the fire aside, it sounds like all slowed down for the yellow until they knew where the trouble was and then went fast to catch the field away from the incedent.

But to say "while the SLOW DOWN part can sometimes be waived." it flat out wrong.

Like you said, we need to use good judgement, and every situation can be different. But that in no way changes the rules.

The rules say slow down, but they don't say you must remain at a slow pace for the entire full course yellow.