Rule change - 15" wheel allowance?

[jhooten]

Originally posted by dominojd:
I'll answer this. The NX 2000 and Sentra SE-R are both FWD and have a 4/100 bolt pattern. The 240 is RWD which has different offsets and has a 4/114 bolt pattern.

Actually it is 4 on 4.5" and near 0 offset. The only reason I know this is the 240 guys can use my wheels with slight alterations.

Being one of the fortunate few that have both 14 and 15 inch wheels listed in the spec line for my car (85 Supra) the rule change makes little difference to me. BUT finding either a 14X7 or 15X7 with anything near 0 (-8mm) is not an easy thing to do. I may have to end up buying spacers or adapters at about $300 an axle to allow me to fit FWD offset wheels.

And tire choice is not that great in a dot tire either. Stock tires for my car are 225/60-14. The only fit I have found so far is a 225/50-14. A bit shorter. And they get eat up fast. The camber is NOT adjustable. Factory spec is 50'+/- 45' and I am at the - end of it. In other words 0 degrees. Camber plates are not an option until coil overs become legal because the stock diameter springs only clear the tower by the width of a finger.

So we make do the best we can with what we got.


Tom,

As it is now tire size is "unrestricted".

[This message has been edited by jhooten (edited July 20, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by jhooten:
Camber plates are not an option until coil overs become legal because the stock diameter springs only clear the tower by the width of a finger.

Tom,

If your car has struts... (I'm assuming it's an 84 or so Supra???) which I'm sure it does, then doing a coil-over conversion on your struts IS legal... you just can't have the threaded sleeve permenantly attached to the housing... Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are referring to???

If the BoD votes like I believe they will, then true threaded-body coilovers will be legal on cars where we previously had to add a threaded-sleave, so this should further improve your choices of struts and will make it easier for the average person to install a set...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Knestis]

FWIW, the wording of the rule allows cars with 13s or 14s to use 15s - there is no provision that would allow someone with 13" wheels to use 14s.

K

[Catch22]

I think its a great idea although it doesn't really help me at all. Until Hoosier builds a 205/40/15 (which isn't likely) I need the 13s to maintain my crappy 4 speed gearing.

So, I get nothing out of it and STILL think its excellent progress that will help many people. I know first hand how friggin hard it is to get 13x6 wheels without spending $200ish each, which is frustrating as hell when folks are buying 15" wheels that are just as light for $110.
Widths haven't changed, so I don't see where a performance advantage will be had. The ITB guy who crams a 225/45/15 tire on a 6" wide wheel isn't going to end up with any more contact patch than he had with his 225/50/14s. Just a shorter sidewall (which likely ends up losing its benefit by being pinched so badly on the wheel.

I think it simply opens up a whole bunch of options that weren't there before. I've already been to the Hoosier website and cross referenced some various diameters to the gear ratio table on the Houseman website and learned that this rule change does diddly squat for me. But you know something... It was nice to have the option to check all of that out.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by gran racing:
The change in ruling - it would only allow for an increase in size and not a decrease, correct? Or could you use any wheel size no matter what is OEM?

Contrary to what others have quoted the rule does not say "upto".

I'd like it to because then I could utilize 13's instead of the OEM size of 14's. So as it is proposed I could utilize either 14's or 15's, but not go down in size.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
I'd like it to because then I could utilize 13's instead of the OEM size of 14's. So as it is proposed I could utilize either 14's or 15's, but not go down in size.

The intent was NOT to allow you to downsize wheels, but rather go up...

I do believe our intent was to allow 13" to run either 14" or 15", and for 14" to run 15"... I'll look into that because I'm pretty certain that's what we agreed on.

As for going down sizes (14" to 13"...), that was never the intent of the rule and not what we were shooting for. (it's also a pretty tough sell to use availability as a selling point, then say we want to be able to go DOWN to the sizes that we say are getting tough to find... Not exactly the makings of a strong argument...)

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited July 20, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited July 20, 2004).]

[gran racing]

I read the wording in Fastrak and based on the way I read it, a car that is using 13" wheels can use 15" wheels. Again, just based on how I read it and know others will read it the 13" wheel can not be replaced with 14" wheels.

Yes I know, Darin said that in this situation 14" wheels would be allowed. But that's not how I read it now. I'd hate to have people protested because of this in the future.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by gran racing:
Yes I know, Darin said that in this situation 14" wheels would be allowed. But that's not how I read it now. I'd hate to have people protested because of this in the future.

Stay tuned, because I have a note in with the rest of the ITAC to see what the deal is with this... I'm about 95% certain we intended for 13" to be able to run 14" or 15"... If that's the case, we'll get the wording corrected...

[Quickshoe]

Thanks Darin.

[jhooten]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Tom,

If your car has struts... (I'm assuming it's an 84 or so Supra???) which I'm sure it does, then doing a coil-over conversion on your struts IS legal... you just can't have the threaded sleeve permenantly attached to the housing... Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are referring to???

If the BoD votes like I believe they will, then true threaded-body coilovers will be legal on cars where we previously had to add a threaded-sleave, so this should further improve your choices of struts and will make it easier for the average person to install a set...

The local rules nerd told me the springs had to be the same diameter as the originals. If I can go to a smaller diameter spring and perches on the struts then the camber plates will work. Got plenty of time to get it figured out. Racing is done till after the run offs. (you guys get snow, we get melted asphalt)

[Jake]

Here’s the wording:

1. Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

Certainly needs to be fixed to help the ITB & C folk stuck with 13x6 wheels.

[Jake]

BTW - The real effect of this change?

Expect to see a LOT of 2-driver Spec Miatas running in ITA next year.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by jhooten:
The local rules nerd told me the springs had to be the same diameter as the originals. ...

Huh?

K

[Diane]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
If the BoD votes like I believe they will, then true threaded-body coilovers will be legal on cars where we previously had to add a threaded-sleave, so this should further improve your choices of struts and will make it easier for the average person to install a set...

Didn't they make threaded bodies illegal for IT just a few years ago? Why on earth would they change it back so quickly?

Can you tell I'm getting caught up on stuff? <sigh>

Diane

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by jhooten:
The local rules nerd told me the springs had to be the same diameter as the originals.

OK, just a little advice... GET YOUR OWN GCR and READ IT YOURSELF!

Not putting you down, but you've now become one of the "Dupped"... Be careful who you listen to, and know enough about the rules yourself to question any advice...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Diane:
Didn't they make threaded bodies illegal for IT just a few years ago? Why on earth would they change it back so quickly?

Can you tell I'm getting caught up on stuff? <sigh>

Diane

The short of it is that there are large varieties of racing shocks available out there in "affordable" packages, but they have been, up to now, illegal for IT because the threads for the coil-over were permanently attached to the housing. Those with the means purchase these, turn off the threads, then add threaded sleeves back on... Clearly, this just doesn't make sense. It was time for a change, and it looks like it's going to happen.

I believe this has all kinds of up-side for IT, and very little negative effect. Hopefully you all feel the same. Judging from your letters, I believe you do.

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Diane]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
The short of it is that there are large varieties of racing shocks available out there in "affordable" packages, but they have been, up to now, illegal for IT because the threads for the coil-over were permanently attached to the housing. Those with the means purchase these, turn off the threads, then add threaded sleeves back on... Clearly, this just doesn't make sense. It was time for a change, and it looks like it's going to happen.

I believe this has all kinds of up-side for IT, and very little negative effect. Hopefully you all feel the same. Judging from your letters, I believe you do.

Actually you missed my point I think.

IIRC threaded bodies were either legal or a grey area a few years back. Pre-2002. Or was it just a grey area? My 2001 GCR is not here and I don't have any from 1998-2000

I'm not saying it's not a good change. However, if they made threaded bodies illegal in 2001/2 and are changing their minds so quickly, that's not good.

Maybe it was just a clarification at that time?

Diane

[jhooten]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
OK, just a little advice... GET YOUR OWN GCR and READ IT YOURSELF!

Not putting you down, but you've now become one of the "Dupped"... Be careful who you listen to, and know enough about the rules yourself to question any advice...

OK, I have a 2002 when I started building the car and a 2003 which came out 2 months later and the 2004 and we are done with it now that the 2004 points year is over.
I do know how to read american english but must admit I am a little weak in automotive jargon and rules legaleese. So I asked one of the old hands what the spring rule means. Guess that's what I get for wanting to do things right the first time and not have to redo stuff over and over and over again.

As a side note, Old Guys, if you don't know say so instead of blowing smoke up the new guys body openings, thank you very much. You'll gain more respect in the long run.

Hey wait, I'll bump up to ITE then I can do what ever I want (almost) and it will be legal) And with an average starting grid of 1.78 instead of the 5.68 for ITS I can get points faster. Yipeeeee!

[Knestis]

Contributing to the wander off topic...

Back when the "no threaded body shocks" rule came to be, it was to keep people from using then-exotic hardware that had to be custom made for production-bodied cars. I don't remember when that clause was added but it was quite some while ago - 15 years or so.

The SOP then was an aftermarket strut/shock/insert that used stock perches and big ol' springs of a higher rate.

Clever people got around that by using a threaded sleeve over a shock/strut, that uses small diameter "racing springs." The net result was that we could buy off-the-shelf Eibachs or HyperCoils for $50-70 a throw rather than having to find someone to wind a decreasing radius spring at what MIGHT be the right rate.

I was baffled by the comment that someone - ostensibly in a decision-making position - said that the spring had to be the stock diameter. That's just wrong and I don't know where in the hell it came from.

K

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Maybe it was just a clarification at that time?</font>

Diane, I suspect it has more to do with the apparently significant changes in attitues within the organization. Dare I sound optimistic, and say that a lot of things that are happening are - HORRORS! - "responsive" to membership input...?

<knock on wood>