The new ITA class

[ddewhurst]

***PRO Spec Miata....PRO = Money. Money = Best available.***

Andy, not to labor an issue but if the top three from the East coast & the top three from the West coast were given say two/three test days in an IT car of some class to set the car to their likes the results would be the same. They are DRIVERS. Coello at 23, Herr at 22 are young men at the top of their game. I think the West coast guys are somewhat older.

Have Fun
David

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***PRO Spec Miata....PRO = Money. Money = Best available.***

Andy, not to labor an issue but if the top three from the East coast & the top three from the West coast were given say two/three test days in an IT car of some class to set the car to their likes the results would be the same. They are DRIVERS. Coello at 23, Herr at 22 are young men at the top of their game. I think the West coast guys are somewhat older.

Have Fun
David

I'm not sure what your point is. I agree with what you are saying but the original comment you made had to do with 'how do the Pro SM races get the top drivers to the events? And the answer is prize money.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited April 09, 2004).]

[cherokee]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:


So what do you do with it? I say that in the best interest of the hundreds that are out there, you try and make it fit better. DOn't make it a killer, just try and make it fit. It's not a political move, it's a move (IMHO) that makes IT a better alternative than going to Prod or GT.

AB

<Vent mode on>

You have got to be kidding me....OF CORSE IT IS POLITICAL. The ONLY reason this is being brought up is because of the "hundreds" of cars that are out there. If it was John Doe in his Vega would we be having this discussion....NOPE, you have said so yourself.

And you know what thats fine...it is the way the world works....just admit it to yourself, and don't expect the ITB guys to just roll over if they think it is wrong to put it there. In my view in VERY black and white terms in my mind ITS is screwed up, ITA is screwed up, (open computers caused all of this), so lets screw up ITB too.

<vent mode off>

Yes there is a problem with the older cars in ITA but just slapping a couple pounds and making them run skinny wheels is not going to make them fit inside ITB, on top of I think so yes. Something else will need to be done, or we will hear from the ITB guys griping about the 7 just like ITA guys gripe about the CRX and ITS guys gripe about the BMW. Perhaps when/if PCA's come in to play it will level it self out, but I am from Missouri so you will have to "show me" it will work in practice.

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by cherokee:
<Vent mode on>

You have got to be kidding me....OF CORSE IT IS POLITICAL. The ONLY reason this is being brought up is because of the "hundreds" of cars that are out there. If it was John Doe in his Vega would we be having this discussion....NOPE, you have said so yourself.

I knew this was coming - and I happen to think you are wrong. In order for it to be political IMHO, you need a group lobbying for the change - GUESS WHAT? This is a totally proactive consideration on the part of the ITAC. No 'politicing' at all.

*I* think this group of cars should be first in line for consideration if PCA's pass. HOWEVER, there have been enough conflicting opinions on this board to make me think about it even harder. The interesting ones are the people who think that the car is ok where it is - AND who drive them. Hmmm.


AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[cherokee]

I am sorry but it is political, you are catering to the wishes of a specific group if the ask for it or not it does not matter...you are just trying to help those poor masses in the RX-7 They know that they are at the bottom of the chain, have no chance to get to the top without your help, and if we take the advantages that everyone else has worked so hard to get they can be on top again....see where this is going? I don't want to get into a political argument...but its the season

I think that it is most likely a dead issue any-ho, With from what I have read members of the ITAC think the car is ok,some need more info and other people here think it is and it is not. I think it is in the same boat as the MR2, so I guess that I think it is broken, the only thing that I object to is moving it to ITB with the adjustments being talked about here, and the reasoning behind the move.

[Knestis]

Sorry - I'm with AB on this one. If in fact there is no pressure coming from (a) a substantial group, ( a very vocal but less-than-substantial group, or © individuals with clout, then by my definitions anyway, this doesn't rise to the level of politic-ing.

It's called planning and even if I have detail differences with some of what has been going on [/i]as long as we can NOT go to a member-whining driven system, I'll be satisified.[/i]

K

K

[Silkworm]

This is why we can never get any changes done. They gave the Neon's a shot to being competitive. If that works, and it looks like the RX-7s are getting shafted in ITA, then you could make a case to move them to ITB. Then something in ITB is going to get shafted, and they're going to want to move to ITC. And then someone's going to bitch in ITC.

But if you don't make these adjustments where cars are obviously misclassed, you end up with a self fulfilling cycle where people gravitate to the hot car in the class, and you have 30 CRXs and 325s in each class.

I like that SCCA is trying something new. I say give it a chance. Just my .02$

PaulC

[JeffYoung]

Andy, I swear, I thought my TR8 would DOMINATE. Cool rims and stickers and everything and it would be fast.....I'm kidding of course.

Car choice is personal. It is part of the deal. You pick your lot in IT. Rick Thompson and Don Vincini and others at VIR who are fast, REAL fast, at VIR have chosen to run 7s. They developed them, and have learned their strengths and weaknesses, and they go out and win.

I'm sorry guys, I see a lot of this car classification stuff as wasted breath. No one assigns you a car in IT. You pick it. If you have a love affair with an underdog (a la me), you build it, you learn to drive, and you see what you can do. If you can't win, and that is the most important thing to you, move on to a another car.

The thing that impresses me about IT are they guys who take cars that other drivers claim to be uncompetitive and win with them. There's a couple of them in IT7, there's Tom Fowler when he runs that Prelude, there's Tim Butler in an ITS Alfa here, there is a guy who actually wins in a TR8 in the MidWest, etc.

[Bill Miller]

Well Andy, I don't think it's legitimate. And if you and the powers that be, don't feel that the membership needs to know how specifications/classifications are determined in IT, then get an offical statement to that effect. And, if there's no guarantee of competitiveness in IT, why are PCAs even being discussed?

The 'no guarantee' thing gets trotted out when it's convenient, and gets trampled all over when it's not. Either take it out, or deal with it.

You know what it is Andy, I'm just not an "end justifies the means" kind of guy. I also get very nervous when people tell me they're doing something 'for my own good', but I don't really need to know how they're doing it.

I am curious though, w/ the massive moves that are proposed (and more comming), why is there such a resistence to creating another class in IT? Seems like that would piss off the least amount of people.

Or, just correct the weights and keep calling it Errors and Omissions.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[RSTPerformance]

I am not up to date cause I have not read all these posts cause I really don't care much about reclassifications and will just take what comes... I do want to make a comment though. The people doing the job seem to be working on making things better for all, and they seem to be doing a good job at it so far IMO.

I do think we will always see problems, because it is just impossible to classify 30+ years of cars into 4 categories. Their needs to be more classes, and I think while their might be less cars in each class their would be more cars overall because people would have more ambition to race their "loves" that currently are uncompetitive.

As for people getting upset about reclassifications, You have no right to IF you are starting out after your car has "been deemed uncompetitive." IE: All Neon guys/gals, 1st generation RX-7 Guys/Gals that came in after the Integra and CRX, any ITS driver who came after the BMW, etc. etc. etc. You all knew that the car would not beat those cars; you’re the one who made the choice to buy/build the car. This can be made into a simple analogy... People who move into a house next door to a racetrack, then try to get the sound level decreased because they don't like the noise.

All others who spent time/money developing a winning car then got the shaft as a car was classified with much better potential... I do think you have the right to gripe. However if your car fades over time (much like our ITA Capri) then deal with it and realizes times change cars and classes will get a little faster every year.

Best of luck to all, those that don’t like the changes enjoy your 2004 season, next year things will be a lot different. Those that like the changes do some testing and keep the entry numbers high, so they add more events next year!!!


Raymond Blethen

[ddewhurst]

***Posted by Andy***

***I'm not sure what your point is. I agree with what you are saying but the original comment you made had to do with 'how do the Pro SM races get the top drivers to the events? And the answer is prize money.***

Andy, please read the posts slower so that you understand what is being stated. I never questioned, "how do the Pro SM races get the top driversto the events." within my original post I was responding to the bitch fest about the best drivers East, West, ARRC & all the other BS about are the ARRC drivers the best. Drivers like Coello, Herr, Payton (32ish), Shawn (27ish) will kick ASS no mater where they race after a couple days practice in a new class IT car at a new track. Can you say talent wins & finishes at the front................

***Posted by Kirk***

***Sorry - I'm with AB on this one. If in fact there is no pressure coming from (a) a substantial group, ( a very vocal but less-than-substantial group, or © individuals with clout, then by my definitions anyway, this doesn't rise to the level of politic-ing.***

Kirk, what the hell do you call FOUR divisions that have an IT7 class. If that ain't (a)a substantial group, ( a very vocal but less-than-substantial group, or © individuals with clout, what are the IT7 groups in four DIVISIONS called by your selective definition ?

My defination would be that the IT7 groups beat the politics. There are way to many people saying you can't or your going to do this because I said so.

Have Fun
David

[ITSRX7]

[quote]Originally posted by ddewhurst:
How about we look to the Pro Spec Miata results from the East coast, from the West coast & from the bell ringer final in central USA at Topeka ? The top guns are the top guns no matter where they go.
Why would it be any different with any other IT race class ?

David
[quote]

This is your original post.

The issue is that people are saying the ARRC isn't the best of the best because the best don't neccessarily go to the ARRC. People don't travel outside their Regions to find stiffer competition.

Let's let it drop, the more I think about it, the more I don't understand your point at all.

AB

***Posted by Kirk***

***Sorry - I'm with AB on this one. If in fact there is no pressure coming from (a) a substantial group, ( a very vocal but less-than-substantial group, or © individuals with clout, then by my definitions anyway, this doesn't rise to the level of politic-ing.***

Kirk, what the hell do you call FOUR divisions that have an IT7 class. If that ain't (a)a substantial group, ( a very vocal but less-than-substantial group, or © individuals with clout, what are the IT7 groups in four DIVISIONS called by your selective definition ?

My defination would be that the IT7 groups beat the politics. There are way to many people saying you can't or your going to do this because I said so.

Have Fun
David

The difference is that , although the group exists, they have in no way used their size and/or perceived clout to infuence the ITAC or CRB toward a change in IT. Frankly, they have done just the opposite and created their own class in some (not all) Regions. Every Region will give you a class if you can come up with the numbers - doesn't matter what kind of car it is as long as its safe - and the numbers are SMALL to qualify.

There has been no political manuvering by any group of ITA RX-7's to date. This is an exploration done proactively by the ITAC.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited April 09, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Well Andy, I don't think it's legitimate. And if you and the powers that be, don't feel that the membership needs to know how specifications/classifications are determined in IT, then get an offical statement to that effect. And, if there's no guarantee of competitiveness in IT, why are PCAs even being discussed?

The 'no guarantee' thing gets trotted out when it's convenient, and gets trampled all over when it's not. Either take it out, or deal with it.

You know what it is Andy, I'm just not an "end justifies the means" kind of guy. I also get very nervous when people tell me they're doing something 'for my own good', but I don't really need to know how they're doing it.

I am curious though, w/ the massive moves that are proposed (and more comming), why is there such a resistence to creating another class in IT? Seems like that would piss off the least amount of people.

Or, just correct the weights and keep calling it Errors and Omissions.

I hear you, I understand the basis for your issues, and I think that when you look at the bigger picture we are justified in our position. Let's agree to disagree. I would say there is no need to keep taking shots at us or the CRB. If you want a formal explanation, write the CRB. I have tried to give you one and you refuse to accept it. You don't have to accept but you should at least give us a break on this board. If there is a groundswell that favors your position, open the debate again but I think you are in the minority.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Originally posted by cherokee:
I am sorry but it is political, you are catering to the wishes of a specific group if the ask for it or not it does not matter...you are just trying to help those poor masses in the RX-7 They know that they are at the bottom of the chain, have no chance to get to the top without your help, and if we take the advantages that everyone else has worked so hard to get they can be on top again....see where this is going? I don't want to get into a political argument...but its the season

I think that it is most likely a dead issue any-ho, With from what I have read members of the ITAC think the car is ok,some need more info and other people here think it is and it is not. I think it is in the same boat as the MR2, so I guess that I think it is broken, the only thing that I object to is moving it to ITB with the adjustments being talked about here, and the reasoning behind the move.

"POOR MASSES"???? that right, send us home!!!, and youll be missing half the friggin ITA cars in the country genius. This is the kind of crap logic that made my move to production worth it. gotta go guys, I know I started this but its a bit frustrating and with my physical coming due I have to keep my BP down.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
As for people getting upset about reclassifications, You have no right to IF you are starting out after your car has "been deemed uncompetitive." IE: All Neon guys/gals, 1st generation RX-7 Guys/Gals that came in after the Integra and CRX, any ITS driver who came after the BMW, etc. etc. etc. You all knew that the car would not beat those cars; you’re the one who made the choice to buy/build the car. This can be made into a simple analogy... People who move into a house next door to a racetrack, then try to get the sound level decreased because they don't like the noise.

All others who spent time/money developing a winning car then got the shaft as a car was classified with much better potential... I do think you have the right to gripe. However if your car fades over time (much like our ITA Capri) then deal with it and realizes times change cars and classes will get a little faster every year.

Raymond, In the past I've agreed with this. I've been flamed for "do your homework/or don't complain" comments before.

To a small degree I understand the complaints from people who do build the "top dog" and then have a new "top dog" make their car grid fodder. However, their car didn't become grid fodder overnight.

The new shifting around of cars should give people more choices, which is both good and bad.

Good: new choices make it more interesting.

Bad: the homework becomes a little more difficult to ace, however less chance of failure at the same time. Today's passing grade may not be a passing mark next year.
To borrow from your analogy, I build my dream home and then a few years down the road they build an airport nearby. I have to say "airport" because the racetrack wouldn't bother me unless it was a NASCRAP track.

I firmly believe that the ITA rx7 doesn't have a chance against the top dogs in A when they are all equally prepared/driven. However, that is so seldomly the case. So the 7 shines from time to time. I had sevens, I love sevens, however, they have had their day. If you really must have a 7 then race it in IT7 if you have that option. Build it because you love it, but don't build one for "A" and then complain if you don't win.

convert it to EP and be done with the "intent" BS.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Kirk, what the hell do you call FOUR divisions that have an IT7 class.

What Andy said. I make a critical distinction between a group of people planning for the health and growth of the category and a group responding to self-serving requests from members who want their ride to be more competitive.

Of course this assumes that the group is going in a direction that I like. I'm guardedly optimistic about the current situation but the SECOND that PCAs are applied - if they happen - in response to a member request for a lighter weight in a class, we have turned the corner to the dark side.

K

[lateapex911]

First up, Bill M. C'mon buddy! Roll with it! you're better that this.....

Jake- shoot me your email and we can go into the particulars... too lengthy for here.

by Cherokee: <Vent mode on>

You have got to be kidding me....OF CORSE IT IS POLITICAL. The ONLY reason this is being brought up is because of the "hundreds" of cars that are out there. If it was John Doe in his Vega would we be having this discussion....NOPE, you have said so yourself.

Mr. Cherokee- I will not vent, but I HOPE that you have a misunderstanding of the term "political", because you are way off base here. Using your logic, the 7 would have been moved (it hasn't, remember?) and the Prelude would still be stuck in ITA. Are you suggesting that Dave Gran (and what, the other six ITA Prelude drivers in the country?) have pals on the ITAC? Jeeez...I've been close friends with the grand poobah of the whole club racing deal since the 80s, and my car hasn't been moved! Maybe I need to slip him a G note eh?

The fact that the Prelude has been nominated for a move is nearly EXACTLY the same action that you said would never happen to your Vega friend....

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> quote by Cherokee: Something else will need to be done, or we will hear from the ITB guys griping about the 7 just like ITA guys gripe about the CRX and ITS guys gripe about the BMW. </font>

Lets get somethng straight. Redistribution of the classes is good for ALL the classes! It's no secret folks, that most ITC races are poorly subscribed, and most ITA and S races are quite healthy, numbers-wise. So, moving cars down, the "trickle down" philosophy, makes HUGE sense, and it CAN be done without "Taking advantage of everyones hard work", as you sort of put it. Really, with the dual pronged attack of intra-class movement and PCAs, the only guys who should feel the pain of a legitimitly decreased chance at the front are the current cellar dwellers in C, and honestly there are very few of them. PCAs will help them to some degree, but there will be casualties. BUT... the number of cars that will go from class fillers to having a chance will far outweigh the numbers who are hurt.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> by Quickshoe: I firmly believe that the ITA rx7 doesn't have a chance against the top dogs in A when they are all equally prepared/driven. However, that is so seldomly the case. So the 7 shines from time to time. </font>

Italics mine. Well, then come on up here and watch us get slaughtered in the NE!!!!! I've tested, I've developed, I've gotten the parts and so on. While I'm no Michael S. or Juan Pablo, I'm often slightly faster of about 7 or so RX-7s in the NE. For one brief shining nanosecond, after a few lucky moves on the start from my 6th place grid spot, I ran as high as second until the Integra spinning in front of me augered into my drivers door. IF I had been able to finish that race in second (1st place driver Anthony Serra was checking out seconds per lap) I would have gotten out of the car and kissed the start finish line!!!

In your good vs bad comparo, I firmly feel that the bad already exists.

To an RX-7 (and a few other ITA cars, but the RX-7 is the best example) driver your airport analogy is very close to home. I chose my car when it had a chance. Then they added the overdog CRX. Uh oh... Then they changed the ECU rule. UH OH!!!! Then the CRX looked like it was a bit too succesful, so they added the Integra, and the 240SX. OH NO!!!!! Now the horse is really out of the barn, so why not add the Neon, the NX-2000, and the SER? Well, at this point, not only did they build tha airport, but recent additions have paved a new runway right over your backyard pool......

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 09, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 09, 2004).]

Cherokee:

Out of curiosity, what do you race and who are you? I've perused your profile several times and you don't list any relevant racing information???!!

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Daryl Brightwell
ITA RX7 #11
NORPAC
ITA RX7 #77
SOPAC

http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.p...m&cat=500&page=

EP this summer

[Geo]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
If you want a formal explanation, write the CRB. I have tried to give you one and you refuse to accept it.

Actually, we have given a formal explanation. What we have not done is created a mathematical formula. I don't see a mathematical formula ever being accepted.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com