Fire extinguishers...and pulling the pin??

[m glassburner]

I personally have no problem w/track personell pulling the pin on a ext. system... but dont pull it on my hand held bottle its not designed for that!!Furthermore its not required...it is required on a ext. system.Read the gcr kind hearted voulenteer people...please.

[JohnRW]

OK...kinda cryptic...but here's a shot:

Some overzealous (...ahem...) Grid or Tech worker pulled the pin on your handheld extinguisher (or demanded that YOU pull the pin), citing GCR 17.22. Unfortunately, they had only read the first part of 17.22, and didn't bother to read the second part. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I know of incidents of this in two different Divisions (NEDiv and CENDiv).

Some Region owes you a recharged or replaced handheld fire extinguisher, IMO.

I wrote a letter to the CRB about 2-3 months ago, on this very subject. There was a note in FasTrack about that time from the "Nat'l Chief of Something", reminding Grid/Tech etc. that pins needed to be pulled from fire systems, but the FasTrack item was VERY AMBIGUOUS. My letter to the CRB requested that the "Nat'l Chief of Something" Reissue his notice, pointing out that there is a difference between a handheld fire extinguisher and a fire system. The one response I got from the CRB was sort of a "well, DUH...WE know what 17.22 means...", but it's race specialties in the field that need to understand this, not the CRB.

So...am I close here ?

[ddewhurst]

Being that the Fire System rules are being discused maybe we should be looking at the overall picture a little deeper.

17.22 Fire Systems

All cars shall be equiped with an On-Board Fire System except Showroom Stock, Touring and Improved Touring.

How come the three stated classes are not required to have a Fire System ? Is there less risk in the three stated classes ? Do the three stated classes not burn as easily as the classes that require Fire Systems ?

Back to the original topic. There is nothing stating that the hand held bottle pin SHALL be pulled. I know nothing about the design features of a hand held not accecpting pulling the pin.


Have Fun
David

[JoelG]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
All cars shall be equiped with an On-Board Fire System except Showroom Stock, Touring and Improved Touring.

How come the three stated classes are not required to have a Fire System ? Is there less risk in the three stated classes ? Do the three stated classes not burn as easily as the classes that require Fire Systems ?

I think that the danger of fire is less in those classes, as long as they have the original factory fuel plumbing in place. The OE mfgrs have a great interest in making sure their cars dont burn, even when wrecked.

Every race car I've seen burn (not that I've been doing this for that long) was due to the failure of home-built plumbing.

[JohnRW]

Let's understand handheld extinguishers here...once the seal is broken on a handheld extinguisher (and that happens when the pin is pulled), that extinguisher is no longer considered 'certified'. That means the Coast Guard...your local fire inspectors...or the Tech guy checking your car or doing an annual on your car...will no longer accept that extinguisher as anything other than a paperweight. You need to replace it.

Why ? The valve on handhelds is cheap, and once it is opened, the extinguishant will contaminate the valve and it will lose its pressure charge. That's why you don't do a "squirt test" with handheld extinguishers.

Don't let anybody tell you that you have to pull the pin on a handheld extinguisher before you go on track. If they try, protest them. If they make you do it, make their Region buy you a new extinguisher. That should put a stop to this nonsense.

[This message has been edited by JohnRW (edited May 24, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by JohnRW (edited May 24, 2004).]

[m glassburner]

Agreed guys thanx!I know I feel better now.The extingushier never went off...it should be ok. mike g.

[ddewhurst]

Joel, ya missed the point. Does gas station gas BURN/HURT less than race fuel ? IMHJ only a _ _ _ _ _ _ _ would want to un- buckle a hand held, pull the pin, push the release lever, un-belt & bail out. In case of fire I will pop the fire system button/lift the cam lock & bail out.

***That's why you don't do a "squirt test" with handheld extinguishers.***

John, when is the last time YOU "squirt tested"'a fire system ?

Not trying to be scarastic guys. Just trying to be real..........

Have Fun
David

[sgallimo]

hmmm... I'm really confused. Are you talking about simply removing the pin that keeps you from accidentially discharging the handheld and/or fire system or are you talking about them discharging a small amount to verify that the thing actually works? If the former, what is the problem with them removing the pin? Are you worried that the person won't be careful enough to avoid setting the thing off before the pin is reinserted? What would be the purpose of pulling the pin? To insure that it isn't stuck?? If the latter, why would they do this? If they simply want to verify that it is charged properly, they could check the pressure guage??


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-Scott Gallimore
-ITC #88 Pulsar

[m glassburner]

Ok to try and clear this up...They pulled the pin on my bottle not a system...systems are to have the pin pulled and ready to go when heading out on track... the bottles are not designed to work that way and therefore shouldnt...they could accidently discharge...systems are designed to operate that way...hopes this clears it up..

[Drew Aldred]

ddewhurst said: "In case of fire I will pop the fire system button/lift the cam lock & bail out".


My feeling is just the opposite. IF I happen to kick the button as I'm leaving the car - great. But get me out of the car first.

Good to see ya this past weekend down at the MudFarm, talk to you later.

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#42 GP Spitfire
Member 289368

[This message has been edited by Drew Aldred (edited May 24, 2004).]

[C. Ludwig]

Unfortunately I've been on fire and can say once you can't breath because the smoke is choking you bailing out is the only thing on your mind. I'd practiced the "on fire/emergency exit" several times and would like to consider myself very calm in situations like this. But when it happens you just want to stop the car and bail.

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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

[Quickshoe]

Let me see if I get this right as I understand the above posts.

On board systems must have the pin removed prior to entering the track so that if needed one pay pull/push the activator knob without having to remove the pin.

--AND--

The non-rechargable hand held units have some type of tamper evident seal around the pin. Absense of this seal renders the unit a paper weight by some bodies (such as the coast guard).

[m glassburner]

I agree with the previous two statements wholeheartdly!!!

[Greg Gauper]

The simple solution is to buy a different hand held fire extinguisher. My old hand held unit had a plastic removable pin with no seal or tamper proof indicator. As do all of the bottles in my house (kitchen, basement) and in my street car and tow vehicle. The plastic pin only prevents against accidental discharge. Tech should only care if the gauge on the bottle reads full, and if the bottle shows obvious signs of damage or discharge. Judging from the material, I would suspect that if I had forgetten to pull the pin, 'human adrenalin' would have been sufficient to squeeze the handle with the pin in place causing the pin to snap. Alternately, I could have replaced the pin with a wooden toothpick, thin thread, thin soldering wire, etc. My biggest concern with a hand held bottle is that they aren't designed for vibration with the pin removed, and I would be concerned that the bottle might go off on its own.

On the fire system in my prod car, we added a red piece of plastic tape to the safety pin to act like a 'remove before flight' flag. At the five minute mark, after I'm strapped in, the last thing we do is pull the pin. When I come off the track, the pin goes in.

I'm not worried about accidental discharge on the fire system.....you have to hit the pin pretty hard. Not likely to go off on its own. If it does go off it's my own damn fault.

[Mike Spencer]

If you have the CGR in your hands, I really don't think it's that ambiguous. The main point that I can see that will demystify some of this is that there are TWO DISTINCT sections in the GCR;

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

17.22.1. On-Board Fire System Requirements
A.
B.
C.
D.
E. The firing safety pin shall be removed from all on-board fire systems prior to going on-track.

17.22.2. Hand-Held Fire Extinguisher Requirements
A.
B.
C. The fire extinguisher shall be securely mounted in the cockpit. All mounting brackets shall be metal and of the quick-release type.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The "shall be removed" section is NOT part of the Hand-Held requirements and DOES NOT APPLY!

If they want to pull it, ask them to show you where it's required.

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Mike Spencer
NC Region
1986 RX-7 Build In-Process
1990 RX-7 Convertible in the driveway

[This message has been edited by Mike Spencer (edited June 01, 2004).]