When is a Start Not a Start?

[Greg Amy]

We had an interesting situation this past weekend at our first Regional event of the year.

Group 1 was a very large field consisting of 34 ITS and ITB cars. We took the start fine but during the first lap there was a serious contretemps between some cars, putting one in the wall and one on its lid. We immediately went under full course yellow with a pace car.

Four lap later the track was clear and we were lined up, ready to go. As we approached the flag station on the front straight we were NOT given a green flag by the starter, but we were also not given a vigorous "NO" head shake. However, apparently Race Control told all corner stations to drop their double-yellow flags. The lead half of the pack began waving their hands for a no-start while the back half of the pack saw the double-yellows drop and started racing. The top half of the field was then greeted by a bunch of corner workers waving their arms in circles as in "go, go, go!"

Within 3 corners the "Black Flag All" was out and the field was brought into the pits. We were sorted out by order of prior pace lap, led out to a single-file start behind the pace car, and the subsequent start and the rest of the race completed without issue (but certainly not without on-track incidents).

Now that we've all kinda chatted about it on the Northeast forum (http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/...ML/000690.html) we're all wondering did any of us, as drivers, do anything wrong? Should we have done anything differently? This track (New Hampshire) has a W-I-D-E straight along with the first two major corners (it's the NASCAR oval) but what if this had happened at, say, Hallet where there wasn't this kind of room?

I think we all agree there was a miscommunication between Start and Race Control, but I'd like to hash it out to see if we as drivers should have reacted differently. For reference, review your GCR 7.5, 7.6, 7.7 (pages 69-72).

Greg

[dominojd]

IMO the front cars did the right thing. The way I feel is NO GREEN NO GO. The starter should have shook his head the flag stations should have posted double yellows but they didn't. I actually think the cars in the back should have backed out also. If you watch dougs video of the original start the starter waved the green flag for the whole field to see not just the first few cars. It would be the same thing on the restart.
Also look at the definition of green flag
9.4.2.A pg82. "A race is under way the instant the greenflag is displayed". Like I said before NO GREEN NO GO.
IMO

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Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

[planet6racing]

Alright, well, climbing the hill at RA or making the turn at Blackhawk. You can't see the s/f flag station. You don't have a radio. You see the last flag station drop the double yellow, indicating a hot race track. You go. You cannot wait to see the flag because everyone else will be gone.

If there was no start, a yellow should have been waving as they came to the S/F flag station. I agree they should wave the green for the whole field, but the guys back in the pack aren't going to wait until they can see it.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[dominojd]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
Alright, well, climbing the hill at RA or making the turn at Blackhawk. You can't see the s/f flag station. You don't have a radio. You see the last flag station drop the double yellow, indicating a hot race track. You go. You cannot wait to see the flag because everyone else will be gone.

If there was no start, a yellow should have been waving as they came to the S/F flag station. I agree they should wave the green for the whole field, but the guys back in the pack aren't going to wait until they can see it.

In the same respect when you get to S/F and see no green do you still go ?



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Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

[RSTPerformance]

I think you have to ask the question what does a flag station without any flags mean??? I have always been taught that a flag station without flags means a green track.

The only exception to this would be a "waive off" from the starters stand, it might take a second or so for the first turn to put up the yellow flags and then the field should regroup and not be badly messed up.

I don't think that any of the drivers did anything wrong as we were all confused and when I was about half way through the field I wondered if this was going to work, but didn't expect it.

As someone who has started near the back I can say that I have depended on flag stations to drop thier flags. In this race Jason and I got put basically back to the back of the pack after regridding the mess up (based on previose lap position) and when the flags were droped at the last station (last restart) I once again passed him and others long before I could see the green at start/finish.

Raymond

[RSTPerformance]

Joe-
You might not go at S/F, but when you see no flags at turn 1 that is when you realize the track is green, and you should go!!!

Raymond

[ddewhurst]

***Alright, well, climbing the hill at RA or making the turn at Blackhawk. You can't see the s/f flag station. You don't have a radio. You see the last flag station drop the double yellow, indicating a hot race track. You go. You cannot wait to see the flag because everyone else will be gone.***

Bill, I tell ya what I'm going to do at our first drivers meeting at the Farm this year. I'm going to read from your post from this thread & we'll see what the chief has to say to you.

***I have always been taught that a flag station without flags means a green track.***

Raymond, I would do the same with your post from this thread if we raced at the same track. Find the rule that supports your version of a station with no flag before you see the green flag at the anticipated start of a race.

Have SAFE Fun
David

[88YB1]

I am just a newby and know very little, but in the race discribed above the starter and/or race control messed up. GCR page 179 section 21.5.5 covers a full course yellow to green restart. "On the lap prior to a possible yellow to green restart, the field will be notified of a possible restart on the next lap by: 1: Safety car turning lights on and off, and exiting the track. 2: If no safety car is used, Starter indicating one more lap.
In either case the lead car gradually brings the field up to speed for a possible restart. 3: At the instant the starter waves the green flag all yellow lights go green (yellow flags drop)Racing resumes immediately over the entire track." Items in brackets mine for clarification.

Chuck
ITA #34 SEDiv.


[This message has been edited by 88YB1 (edited April 19, 2004).]

[Peter Olivola]

Regardless of the flag condition anywhere else, if you pull out of line or improve your position in any way before the green is shown by the starter you have violated the GCR.

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***Alright, well, climbing the hill at RA or making the turn at Blackhawk. You can't see the s/f flag station. You don't have a radio. You see the last flag station drop the double yellow, indicating a hot race track. You go. You cannot wait to see the flag because everyone else will be gone.***

Bill, I tell ya what I'm going to do at our first drivers meeting at the Farm this year. I'm going to read from your post from this thread & we'll see what the chief has to say to you.

***I have always been taught that a flag station without flags means a green track.***

Raymond, I would do the same with your post from this thread if we raced at the same track. Find the rule that supports your version of a station with no flag before you see the green flag at the anticipated start of a race.

Have SAFE Fun
David

[Geo]

I'd have to agree that anyone who passes before the green flag is displayed has contraviened the GCR and subject to sanction.

I also agree that sometimes those starting in the back cannot see the starter's stand and in practice usually use some other clue to begin accelerating.

However, the second part does not trump the first part. Therefore, as tough a pill as it is to swallow, in this specific case anyone who passed even though the green was not displayed are subject to sanction and should be grateful they were not brought before the SOM.

And while cornerstations don't display flags when then track is green, lack of flags does not mean the track is green. For this to happen the green flag must be displayed at the starter's stand.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[SpeedyDave]

wow some of you guys must never race at the back of the field at tracks like Summit Point. Often the cars are still not into turn 10 when the green drops (around a corner, up a hill) and rely exclusively on the flag station at turn 10 dropping yellow as an indicator. If you're good you might pass 6 or 8 cars before hitting the s/f line.

See GCR pg 71 item 9 "All flag stations shall display double yellow flags during all pace laps." Ie, no flags = go.

There was obviously a miscommunication and it sounds like everything was sorted out in the end... From the sounds of things the drivers acted correctly.

[dominojd]

I don't think anyone is talking about the tricks strating from the back. I drive an ITS Nissan Sentra. Where do I ususally start? You go when everyone else goes in the back but,you still have to take the green flag. It is the fact that no grenn flag was displayed for anyone anywhere.

Yes I will agree some officials had some miscommunication on this deal.

Maybe someone from NER will chime in with what happened.

[Geo]

Originally posted by SpeedyDave:
wow some of you guys must never race at the back of the field at tracks like Summit Point. Often the cars are still not into turn 10 when the green drops (around a corner, up a hill) and rely exclusively on the flag station at turn 10 dropping yellow as an indicator. If you're good you might pass 6 or 8 cars before hitting the s/f line.

I know what does happen. But per the rules, if you are caught out in a situation like this you are guilty. Those are the chances you take.

Originally posted by SpeedyDave:
See GCR pg 71 item 9 "All flag stations shall display double yellow flags during all pace laps." Ie, no flags = go.

Those are your words, not those written in the GCR. If no flags truly = go, then that is what would be written in the GCR. The control of the start of the race still lay with the starter's stand.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Greg Amy]

Just for the record:

I did exactly as Andy did up front, and would have done exactly as Raymond, Stephen, Jason, et al did in the back. And I've done this for a long time...

GA

[Geo]

Originally posted by grega:
Just for the record:

I did exactly as Andy did up front, and would have done exactly as Raymond, Stephen, Jason, et al did in the back. And I've done this for a long time...

GA

For the record, I would do the same thing. But, that doesn't change the rules. That is my point. "All the kids are doing it" is not a valid excuse. Doesn't necessarily keep us from doing it.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Trish]

I was watching this restart from turn 3 and the yellows were dropped in 2 and 3 by the time the back of the pack got to the exit of the oval turn. At this point, the front of the pack is at a speed indicative of the corner, but not changing position. The corners workers were vigorously waving them to get racing. And yes, the back of the pack moved up as they were still in a fast section. It was a major communication snafu and in this case, IMHO, the drivers did nothing wrong. For a matter of fact the corner workers were saying while the drivers were being regridded that the starter had been deserted on race day by his experienced starting mentor and was a newbie. Thankfully, another mishap did not happen. Those ITS and ITB driver's were quite impressive.

[RKramden]

Originally posted by Trish:
For a matter of fact the corner workers were saying while the drivers were being regridded that the starter had been deserted on race day by his experienced starting mentor and was a newbie.

Well, Trish, thanks for doing your best to spread lies and libel.

That's not what happened. The person who was the chief starter was asked if she wanted help from another starter and she said NO. She was asked three times. She said no all three times. She clearly was not "deserted", as you seem to state.

The person who has been her mentor was not even at the track during the weekend. I'm told he was at Lime Rock.



[This message has been edited by RKramden (edited April 20, 2004).]

[joeg]

Guys & Gals--Just be glad no one got damaged in that restart.

No one is perfect; not even race officials...

[planet6racing]

Peter, David, et al.

I'm just trying to point out what the rear of the pack was thinking. I agree with the no green, no go. The exception is that the green isn't constantly displayed at S/F throughout the race and, since it was a restart, it is possible to get confused.

David, feel free to read that at the farm. I'll be listening to the comm system for "Green Green Green..." I'm sure there are a lot of people who qualify at the back that would agree with what I said (not that it is correct).

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[bldn10]

"GCR page 179 section 21.5.5 covers a full course yellow to green restart."

This section applies only to "events conducted entirely on paved oval tracks." Since, as I understand, NHIS races are not run entirely on the oval, this section is innapplicable to this incident. I don't find anything in the GCR that is directly on point.

I don't fault any of the drivers front or back. However, I wonder what was said on the Race Control network. I would think that the decision to go green is in the discretion of the Starter, and Race Control does not advise the corner stations "GREEN! GREEN!" until they see the green waved by the Starter. I have worked corners and, if I am showing a double yellow, I'm not dropping it until told to do so by Control. So, possibly, here the error might have been not the Starter (except in not waving their head for a no-start) but in Control by signalling the corners to drop their yellows even though the Starter never waved the green.