When is a Start Not a Start?

[Maddog]

Originally posted by gran racing:
Forget blame - but what should the pack do next time no green flag is shown, no waive off, no yellow at flag one. At this point, I'd say screw it and just go.

According to my Steward friends, if there is no green flag you just keep on chuggin' at reduced speed.

It makes no difference on a restart if the yellows are down or not, there is NO race until the green flag flies at start. If you don't see green you don't race.

The lead cars figured it out and raised a hand to indicate to those behind that there was no start. This should have passed all the way back through the field, but somebody mid pack had their head up their butt and just started racing which screwed up the whole deal.

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Maddog:
According to my Steward friends, if there is no green flag you just keep on chuggin' at reduced speed.

that is like asking your lawyer if a course of action is prudent, they will give you the safe answer. The answer lies in what rules are govererning the drivers action in this situation. you can not pass under yellow, there were no yellows. you can not pass the pace car, the pace car was in.
dick

[RSTPerformance]

“The lead cars figured it out and raised a hand to indicate to those behind that there was no start. This should have passed all the way back through the field, but somebody mid pack had their head up their butt and just started racing which screwed up the whole deal.“

ERRRR (that is a buzzer sound) wrong comment... I have not tried but I don't think I would like any heads up my ___ and I was in the back of the pack, not the middle of the pack. If I saw hands up I would have probably reacted differently. I started the drive forward and others followed my pursuit. I also can't blame anyone for running forward if a head were to end up in their ___ .

I know you all want to drop who is to blame, but that was a finger pointed at my back, that I had to comment to... sorry

Stupid comments deserve stupid responses.

Raymond


[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited April 22, 2004).]

[Maddog]

Originally posted by dickita15:
...The answer lies in what rules are govererning the drivers action in this situation. you can not pass under yellow, there were no yellows.

That's right, and the rules governing driver actions say you can not begin racing until the green is waved. As the green had not been waved you can not begin racing.

[Maddog]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:


.....If I saw hands up I would have probably reacted differently.

When everyone around you went racing you went along, that's natural.

It was the jackass who went racing even though the car in front of him was holding up a hand who screwed things up.

[Geo]

Originally posted by dickita15:
that is like asking your lawyer if a course of action is prudent, they will give you the safe answer. The answer lies in what rules are govererning the drivers action in this situation. you can not pass under yellow, there were no yellows. you can not pass the pace car, the pace car was in.
dick

Wrong. The field was under starter's orders and until the green flag is displayed, no passing is allowed. It's critical to understand the field was under starter's orders.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[SpeedyDave]

Originally posted by Maddog:
When everyone around you went racing you went along, that's natural.

It was the jackass who went racing even though the car in front of him was holding up a hand who screwed things up.

This is interesting, worth discussing I think - I've been in situations where at the start a car (or two or three) "dies" just as the field takes off (and I've been mid/rear pack - unable to see any flag stations). Of course those guys often put up an arm to indicate they're going slow, and everyone quickly tries to get around them without hitting them.
I'm wondering - let's say I'm in the middle pack, I can't see the S/F line (often the case at least at the tracks I've run) I hear motors rev, I start on the gas too and the guy in front of me raises his hand. I have exactly 1/4 millisecond to decide either off the gas and have the guy behind me hit me, or zip aroung the guy with his hand up. Of course if I zip around I may be guilty of a false start - or I may just preserve my position instead of falling to the back behind someone having mechanical problems. Tough judgement call IMO and of course once the decision either way is made - there's no going back.

Interesting thoughts coming out of this discussion, definitely worthwhile!

[RSTPerformance]

Maddog:

I am not overly impressed with your insults… I WAS the jackass that went racing when the cars in front of me did not go, please re-read posts and realize I was at the back, and their were no hands up by the drivers within my sight (I was in about 31-32 position). Please read over posts carefully before calling me a jackass, otherwise I think you are only making yourself out to look like a jackass. Maybe you don't realize I WAS the one who started racing first, but that just means you really need to re-look at the posts before throwing out insults.

To All:

No one did anything wrong, both sides in this situation were correct. If it happens again anywhere I think that the leaders (the front of the pack), have control of the situation.

A) They can stay at a slow pace and
1) Their will probably be a black flag all if the back of the pack chooses not to follow suit,
2) Or the rest of the field will follow at a reasonable pace and hopefully everyone will get the green the next time buy.
The leaders can go as if it was a green and I am sure the race would simply just go on with everyone racing happily ever after.

I strongly suggest that if the leaders do not go than they all pay attention in their mirrors and their surroundings, as they always should be especially in a potentially dangerous situation. To my knowledge no one was looking in his or her mirrors during this situation.

No Yellows in a station means the track is green despite starters orders (IMO). It is not illegal to pass before the start finish when the track goes green. I have seen many instances where real jackasses don’t stay up with the field and fall almost a half lap behind. I am not waiting for that true jackass to get to S/F to see if the green was/has been displayed.

You cannot change the mentality that no yellows means green track, until SCCA makes a clarified rule about it and stops instructing that no yellows is a green track in driver’s schools.

Raymond "proud to be a jackass this time" Blethen

My Jackass comments and reactions should not reflect on the others involved with RST Performance Racing. I know that at least one person on the team does have another view.

[Peter Olivola]

Are you sure you're not a stalking horse for the campaign to get SCCA Club Racing to adopt the North American Unified Flagging Rules? This situation would be much more easily handled by the provision that requires all flag stations to display the green flag for the first lap after a start/restart.

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
No Yellows in a station means the track is green despite starters orders (IMO). It is not illegal to pass before the start finish when the track goes green. I have seen many instances where real jackasses don’t stay up with the field and fall almost a half lap behind. I am not waiting for that true jackass to get to S/F to see if the green was/has been displayed.

You cannot change the mentality that no yellows means green track, until SCCA makes a clarified rule about it and stops instructing that no yellows is a green track in driver’s schools.

[Geo]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
No one did anything wrong, both sides in this situation were correct.

Both of those statements are incorrect. There is a lot that was wrong on all sides. Raymond, I don't have a pitchfork and torch out. But we're back to two wrongs don't make a right.

And I'm not trying to be self-righteous either. I think it's possible for anyone in the same situation to get caught out by something like this. More likely than not, I would myself.

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
The leaders can go as if it was a green and I am sure the race would simply just go on with everyone racing happily ever after.

Oh God no. That had better not happen. I would be on the radio and have a protest lodged before the bloody race was even over. The racers don't decide when the race starts, the starter does. This is flat out wrong and totally dangerous.

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
No Yellows in a station means the track is green despite starters orders (IMO).

It may be your opinion, but it doesn't change what it written in the rule book.

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
You cannot change the mentality that no yellows means green track, until SCCA makes a clarified rule about it and stops instructing that no yellows is a green track in driver’s schools.

You're right. Something needs to change if only some communication.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:

No Yellows in a station means the track is green despite starters orders (IMO).

<stuff deleted>

You cannot change the mentality that no yellows means green track, until SCCA makes a clarified rule about it and stops instructing that no yellows is a green track in driver’s schools.

Raymond "proud to be a jackass this time" Blethen

I am going to disagree strongly with your first statement. The track CAN NOT go green until the starter says so. - period. You can assume all you want, but it just isn't green until the starter says. If it was, I would just have run from 12 after Dick drove the pace car off...how fair is that?

And you can change that mentality by providing details in the supps. All Regions should do this due to the specifics of each track. As for NHIS, it COULD be written that when the double yellows go down in 12, the track is green - and that requires perfect communication between the stater stand and corners.

You ain't no jacka$$ in this situation. The drivers all did what they had to do (from the front and back - I was the lead car and at least the top 5 put up there arms), there was some confusion and then the officials did what they needed to do to correct the situation.

I think the solution to this issue is to publish the restart proceedure and expectations in the supps so nobody has to guess.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

I suport the addition to the supps.

Raymond

[Peter Olivola]

Then why don't we just publish the entire front half of the GCR in the supps for every race? Why should we have to publish anything in the supps that is already covered in the GCR?

[SpeedyDave]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I am going to disagree strongly with your first statement. The track CAN NOT go green until the starter says so. - period. You can assume all you want, but it just isn't green until the starter says. If it was, I would just have run from 12 after Dick drove the pace car off...how fair is that?

You would be in violation of the "rolling" starts section if you took off after the pace car pulls in - and many people have done exactly that - some have been penalized and some have not.

Again, they teach in the drivers schools that no flag = green track, and it's currently on the flag test in several regions in exactly that way.

I understand where you're coming from, if the race hasn't "started" then it can't be green. BUT, there's a reason doing corner checks before the race calls "station x double yellow" and NOT "station x green" or "station x no flag", because whenever a race car is on track the corner must be covered by a flag, otherwise the track is considered green even if the race hasn't officially "started".

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by SpeedyDave:
You would be in violation of the "rolling" starts section if you took off after the pace car pulls in - and many people have done exactly that - some have been penalized and some have not.

Again, they teach in the drivers schools that no flag = green track, and it's currently on the flag test in several regions in exactly that way.

Now you have confused me. We are talking about a restart situation here that is paced by the official car. Lights off, turns off the track, head out of a blind (to the starter stand) corner...

It would seem in your first paragraph that you are telling me that I CAN'T go until I see the flag for penalty of the rolling start rule but in the second you are telling me that no flag = a green track.

So how does this effect the leaders? Double yellows are up at last turn as you pass, you are looking for the green and it never comes - with no waive off. Are you submitting I then look to the first corner to decided if the track is green while the back of the pack is already at full tilt?

AB

[dickita15]

geo
where does it say in the gcr that you must see a green flag on a restart in order to resume racing.
mistakes were made by the officials sure. stuff happens but i do not belive that any of the drivers given the information they had available violated any rules.

dick patullo

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Maddog:
That's right, and the rules governing driver actions say you can not begin racing until the green is waved. As the green had not been waved you can not begin racing.

again where does it say this.

[ITSRX7]

Dick,

You are right...it doesn't appear that it says at all the 'signal' to resume racing on a single file restart.

Does it? What are we to do if we see no green? Maybe I should have just jumped out of 12 when you left the track? Help me understand the right thing to do.

AB

[oanglade]

9.2 Safety Car
9.2.1 Operation and Control
"... Drivers shall maintain the pace established by the safety car and shall not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed and the race restarted."


While people can interpret "No Flag" as meaning "GO", until the green flag is displayed, the race has not been restarted and improving your position or "begin racing" would be a violation of 9.2.1 of the GCR.
That's how I see it, but I wonder what I would have done myself if I see everyone around me taking off...

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[RSTPerformance]

Peter Olivola-

I think the point of this discussion is that this is not covered in the GCR. It is an (a Gray) area where many people have very different and valid views. This SHOULD be in the supps IMO because it can create a dangerouse situation if everyone is not going to handle it the same, and obviosly from what we have seen here, everyone isn't. I think to make it even more effective would be to say that any car not keeping up with the pace car or the rest of the field during a full course yellow may be black flagged.

Raymond

PS: IMO the sups should say that when a corner station is not displaing a flag then the course is considered green. Flag stations can be identified on the first lap of qualifying and practice sesions by a firled pass flag and on the pace lap of a race by a double yellow flag.