more thoughts on wheels

[ITSRX7]

Well, it's obvious that we are at an interesting crossroads. ANY increase in wheel width will throw off the performance envelopes we have now and can truely be considered creep.

However, if the problem is 6" wheel sizes for the ITB and ITC guys, what do we do? THAT is the real question now. If you allow 6.5" widths, then you have virtually created the need for all to go do that and that is NOT the intent of this discussion - keeping costs DOWN and the perfornace in the same general area is.

Ideas?

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[cherokee]

I think for this to do what is intended you are going to have to widen the wheels up to 6.5 or 7". I would think that the 6" wheel is going to go the way of the 13" wheel and be harder and harder to find as time goes on.
As long as you can fit 6.5 or 7" under the fenders I would think that would be the best way to go....for this.

[Knestis]

...but that becomes a de facto performance adjustment for any car that can't fit the wider wheels and the tires that come with them, as others can.

I don't know of specific situations where this is the case but it's accurate in the abstract.

Maybe the solution IS something like Jake(?) suggested - open things up. Just brainstorming here but if the practical limit becomes what will fit in the fenders, then maybe that's the only rule we need.

The tech folks would have to be good at spotting body tweaks...

K

[cherokee]

I agree...it would be a BIG plus for some cars, kinda like the ECU rule was (sorry had to stick that in there) We can leave things the way they are now and just scrounge for wheels or run 5.5" or 6" and not 6" or 7" or just open the thing up like they did on the ECU. If it fits it is ok. I am not sure if I like that but I think it might be the best way to go. And yes I think that some cars will need to be "adjusted", moved....

[planet6racing]

Well, my proposal would be to drop ITB and ITC because their wheels won't play nice. Class them all in ITA with no competition adjustments and lets go racing!!!


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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Banzai240]

Now is where things start to look a little "creepy". We don't want to necessitate that everyone go out and buy new wheels to keep up, which is what may happen if the widths are increased.

Now, is .5" wider going to make a big difference? Not likely... Your fenders really determine how big you can go with tires, so .5" either way isn't going to change the tire you choose.

I put together a spreadsheet from The Tire Rack last night for a random list of ITB cars (nearly one example of each make classified...) to see what was out there. For some cars, 14x6 and 15x6 were available, thought the selection was VERY slim. If you allow up to a 6.5", that does NOT open up you 14" options, but it does give you a LARGE selection of 15" wheels... MORE, in fact, than 15x7's for many of the applications listed. If the rules were changed to allow anything up to 7" wide, cheap wheels would be VERY plentiful in 15".

However, now all those guys currently racing would be put in a position where their current stock of wheels is definately in jeopordy of becoming obsolete, as now a 13x6" wheel truely ISN'T equivalent to a 15x7" wheel, from a treadwidth perspective.

Now, while I'm certain that there would be people bitching an complaining about this, I have to wonder if in time they'd come to embrace the idea and enjoy having the options available to them?

Interesting position to find ourselves in... While opening up the widths to fit the market would help keep IT "cheap racing" from a wheel availibility and price standpoint, it would create a postition where people would have to spend money to make the switch.

If we do nothing, we're back here in another 6-months... If we put this in place, however, in a manner that makes sense, we would never be having the conversation again...

Any thoughts?

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
...but that becomes a de facto performance adjustment for any car that can't fit the wider wheels and the tires that come with them, as others can.

However, Kirk, if you actually go out and LOOK at the majority of the applications in ITB/ITC, you'll find that STOCK fitment charts list the 15x6.5" wheel for many of them, which means that the hypothetical situation that you've described may not really exist too often in practice.

What I've basically found... well, looking at the Tire Rack mostly, is that there are VERY few 14" wheel options out there, and VERY few 15x6" wheel options, but MANY 15x6.5"+ wheel options...

The question really becomes, is this a concern and do we take this opportunity to securely alter the wheel rules once and for all...? (famous last words...)


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited January 20, 2004).]

[Jake]

I think we can leave ITB and ITC with the 6" wheel limit.

I will agrue until I'm blue in the face that diameter is not a performance benefit, but width is. Allowing a wider wheel for B+C may force drivers to upgrade to wider wheels to stay competitive. This goes against what we are trying to accomplish here by making things more affordable. Worse yet, it will create a situation where some vehicles can benifit while others can't - since not all vehicles will be able to fit wider wheels.

The 13" aftermarket is dead, but 14x6" wheels are plentiful and cheap. Take a look at www.tires.com. They list no less than 13 models of 14x6" wheels, 12 of which cost less than $100/each. Manufacturers include TSW, Konig, and others.

Make no mistake, the problem is finding 13x7 and 14x7 wheels. They are the scarce ones.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Jake:
I think we can leave ITB and ITC with the 6" wheel limit.

...

Make no mistake, the problem is finding 13x7 and 14x7 wheels. They are the scarce ones.

Good Post Jake. I tend to agree with what you said here.


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Jake]

Darin, don't get hung up by doing all your research at tirerack.com

14x6" wheels can be found in many places including Sears and Pepboys. BBS even still builds them.

[cherokee]

Here is what I would suggest:

Your car can run the current size wheel that it is classified with, you can increase the size to X"(I would pick 15"). The width is open as long as it fits under the fenders. Same for all IT classes.

I see this as no different then the ECU issue. If you have 2 cars equal in every way and have a super whiz-bang ECU in one of them...any guess who is faster. The one with out is going to have to spend $$ to keep up...no difference in wheels, in fact I think it would be less of a difference both in $$ and in lap times.

The key is to make it cost effective. And anyone who is going to look at a 15x7 vs hard to find 13 or 14 is going to find it cost effective. It also might be a step in the right direction in bringing in a younger croud.

[Jake]

Cher,

This is VERY different than the ECU issue. The ECU rule was only changed because it is not enforcable. If people can cheat and get away with it, might as well allow everyone that option. It was a good decision, but it was made for other reasons. I assure you, that if modified ECU's were as easy to spot as plus-sized wheels, the rule would never have been changed.

[Knestis]

Thinking further - and more concretely - an allowance for me to use 15x6 wheels on my (future) ITB Golf allows me to use them. It doesn't require it. In truth, if I were given this option, I probably wouldn't take it given the current and projected short-term wheel availability situation and what I know about tire availability.

If the limiting factor is width (6") I have a buttload of 14x6 options. Someone on honda-tech.com even put together a list of OE 4x100 wheels that I hosted at http://it2.evaluand.com/downloads/4x100ListCingham.xls

K

[cherokee]

I am sorry but just because something is hard or not easy to spot do does not mean we should wright a rule to allow it. You are doing the same thing with both wheels and ECU....it does not matter the reason, some will, some will not, and some can't, those that will not or can't are at a disavantage to those that did.
The rules changed after you started the game.

And if you want to put this issue to bed you have to think long term, sure 6" wheels are common now....just like 13" wheels once where...see where this is going. If you say "if it fits under the fender it is ok" you have everyone with VAST CHEAP options as long as the cars have fenders.

Anything that is done will change the rules after people have started the game, and that will upset some people. The thing (rules makers) need to do is come up with rules that will last us as long as possible. "if it fits under the fender" would be with us as long as the cars had fenders...and would be easy police-able. Sure is will make some faster...but that is the same thing that the ECU rule did.

[ITSRX7]

The ECU rule aside for a variety of reasons (1. It isn't 'hard' to police - it's IMPOSSIBLE and 2. The current ECU IMHO has had unintended results - ie: MOTEC boxes inside factory housings), I would like to keep this thread alive.

Can we really open up to ANY diameter? If we can agree there would be an EXTREAMLY limited performance increase, is there a problem? Not expressing an opinion, just soliciting responses...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Can we really open up to ANY diameter? If we can agree there would be an EXTREAMLY limited performance increase, is there a problem? Not expressing an opinion, just soliciting responses...

AB

Andy and others... If the wording for a wheel rule that I suggested is adopted, is the issue really diameter? OR, is it WIDTH? Allowing larger diameters is really pointless, because at any size above 15", you are NOT going to find anything under 6.5" wide... and even 15x6" is a little bit scarce.

The standard wheel widths at 15"+ diameters are 6.5" for 15", then 7" and 7.5" for 16"+...

So, if you are an ITC/ITB car (or current ITA car that may get MOVED to ITB...), any diameter over 15" is pointless, because you are going to find very little selection with a 6" width from any standard wheel suppliers.

I, therefore doubt, even with open wheel diameters, that you'd see any Rabbits out there running around on 18" wheels, simply because you'd never find them in the 6" width. If I'm wrong about this and the wheels supply is out there, feel free to correct me on this.

I'm worried about the ramifications of increasing the width allowances in IT, mostly because of the short term effects. In the long term, however, it might make a lot of sense to consider revising the width rules as well to match what is available out there.

Any thoughts?


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited January 20, 2004).]

[cherokee]

Nothing is Impossible. These are FACTORY mass production cars. Sure there are $$ that will need to be spent for some..on others undo a couple of screws and see if there is a Neuspeed chip or what ever in there. But opening up the computers is about as far from the "intent of IT" as you can get. What I suggested with the wheel size is simple, easly policed, long lasting, and everyone can take advantage of it to one degree or another if they choose to.

[Knestis]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the problem of moving cars from class to class complicates this conversation too much: That issue should be considered as part of an individual make/model movement decision rather than the other way 'round.

Focusing on scarcity, allowing ITC and ITB cars currently required to use 13s to step up to 14s does NOT create a demand-supply problem, generally speaking. There might be some applications that are harder to fit but again, there are lots of 14x6 OE alloys out there.

K

[ITSRX7]

Let's not rehash the ECU issues here. Bottom line is that on some ECU's, you can 'flash' the paramerters. Undetectable without super-sophisticated diagnostic equipment that will NEVER be utilized in IT impounds.

Take a look at Darin's post above. Opening up the wheel diameters may not be the answser. What is?


AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[planet6racing]

Well, I know many of us are thinking it, so I'll verbalize it:

+1/+2 sizing on Diameter for 13 or 14's, +1 for 15's.

ITB/ITC up to 6.5" width without penalty, +2753 lbs for 7" width. Weight must be carried as ballast in defined location over and on top of vehicle weight.

(Obviously, the weight number is completely random)




------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com