Wheel diameter rule change Poll

[Bill Miller]

300!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Who the heck is the ex-Nissan guy to be setting IT policy??

Bill, let's just say that not everyone sees this topic the same way.

I still do not believe the proper documentatin has been given.

Furthermore, I think the letter from Steve Christiansen has been misrepresented here.

That is all I'll say on this topic at this time.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
Furthermore, I think the letter from Steve Christiansen has been misrepresented here.

George... how so??? Here's the letter...

03-668 ITC allow alt. Nissan cam since stock is discontinued

Hi Jeremy,
<requestor name withheld>, an ITC racer, has been trying to get a cam change for the Datsun PL510 in ITC. I believe his motive is like all racers that he wants to go faster and stretch the rules. The camshaft that he wants to get approved for the PL510 is P/N 13001-22000SV. This cam was an original equipment part for the L16 engine equipped with twin SU carbs in the SSS version of the 510. This car was never sold in the US. However the same cam was later used in the US in the L20B engine that was used in HL510, 610, 710, and 200SX. The OE L16 camshaft is no longer available from Nissan. The L20B cam (13001-2200SV) is the only L-series 4 cyl cam available from Nissan. Several of the aftermarket companies do sell the L20B cam for the L16. Nissan, however does not supercede the early cam to the late cam.

Cam spec. Lift Duration
L16 single Carb (US) .390" 236Deg
L16 SSS/L20B .413" 248deg


The cams are not drastically different but the change is not in the spirit of the rules (rules creep). However, since the only cam available is the L20B cam, the rule change would keep race cars on the track. For this reason only would Nissan agree to the change.

If you need any further info, please call.

Thanks,
<name withheld>
Motorsports Specialist
Motorsports Dept. Nissan North America

It is NOT this guys place to interpret the rules, nor to provide his "beliefs" on what the intent of the requestor is. His reasons are some of the same given in rejection of this allowance, and I think that I've represented this letter exactly as it was presented. However, now you can all decide that for yourselves.

Now, the fact that he clearly states that "Nissan does not supersede the late cam for the early cam", but also admits that the cam is the "only L-series cam available from Nissan", combined with the rest of the documents we've received, tells me that the part is considered a "replacement part", which is clearly covered under our rules. I don't believe it is the place of the SCCA to tell the manufactures how to list their parts, no more than it is the place of the manfucturers to tell us what the intent of our rules or competitors are.

The bottom line is that if you go to Nissan and ask for a new camshaft for a stock 510 application, this is the piece their parts guide will give you. If the requestor is successful in retrieving a copy of this, this issue may be able to be put to rest. He could go the route I suggested ealier, but really just wants to follow the existing rules and go about this the "right" way...

I don't think that's too much for him to ask...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited January 11, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
And, not to hijack this thread anymore, but can you give me some insight into the fate of my reclassification requests?

Bill... don't know... Probably wouldn't say anything about it at this time anyhow, since the CRB hasn't given us any feedback on the issue, and I feel it would be inappropriate to comment before they make a ruling public.

Personally, I think some of them make sense, and others don't...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited January 11, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...Here's the letter...</font>

Darin, I happen to know Steve, having worked within him on our current program. He has a lot of strong beliefs on SCCA Club racing, many of which I agree. However, those beliefs should not be used against the requestor.

I believe that you have summed it well, but please allow me. Steve provided the following facts:

- The L16 cam is no longer available.
- The L20 cam is the only one available for that engine.
- Nissan does not officially supercede the L16 cam with the L20 cam, however
- [You implied that] if you order an L16 cam from a dealer you will receive an L20 cam.

That last statement is key, as you pointed out. If one were to go to a Nissan dealer, what would you get? If you get an L20 camshaft, I suggest the path is clear: SCCA needs to approve the camshaft as an acceptable alternative. Clearly, SCCA has not.

Therefore, if one comes back empty-handed fro m the dealer or SCCA declines to approve the alternative part, then SCCA has said, in effect, this car is no longer acceptable to race once you need a replacement camshaft.

Is this the position SCCA wishes to take? I sincerely hope not.

[Knestis]

It is a conundrum imposed by the wording of the rule: If the manufacturer doesn't do an official supersede, the system binds up. If "supersede" is operationalized as Greg describes it - I ask for X1 at the parts window and their book tells me I'm going to get X2 - then the problem disappears in a puff of logic. Is "supersede" in the GCR glossary? I'm "working" right now so I don't have my book...

K

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
...then the problem disappears in a puff of logic.

What does "logic" have to do with rule making in the SCCA??? Though, some might suggested that "puffing" does!



DJ



[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited January 13, 2004).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
What does "logic" have to do with rule making in the SCCA???



DJ

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited January 13, 2004).]

Ok, call the pentagon (or somebody), Darin and I actually agree on something!




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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[itmanta]

There are many cars running in IT where no new factory parts are avilable whatsoever. These cars rely on "good" used parts. In the case of the L16 engine can anyone tell me that "good" used parts are not available? I do not think so. Where in the GCR does it say only new parts can be used.

[lateapex911]

Of course, used parts are fine, but as far as cams go, if I needed one I'd want a brand spanking new one.

(but hey I'm a rotary guy, so what do I know!)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by itmanta:
There are many cars running in IT where no new factory parts are avilable whatsoever. These cars rely on "good" used parts. In the case of the L16 engine can anyone tell me that "good" used parts are not available? I do not think so. Where in the GCR does it say only new parts can be used.

Yeah, but if you go to your local dealer, and they give you X part for your car, and say "This is what we have", but it's not the same part that came w/ the car originally, then they have provided a defacto superceding part. Doesn't matter if they have 'officially' called it a superceding part or not.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Jake]

So Bill, what you are saying is this: Say I go to the Toyota dealer and ask for the correct OEM 14" replacement wheel. They inform me that they are no longer producing 13" or 14" wheels, but would be happy to sell me a 15" wheel from a selection that they have in stock. Therefore I could then run 15"s?

Jake (trying desperately to get back on topic after the worst thread-hijack in recent memory)

[Bill Miller]

Sorry Jake, but there's no requirement to run stock wheels. But nice job bringing it back on topic!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Richy Gonzalez]

So, is the 300+ post thread going to make a difference? I see so many threads in different forums but hardly have I seen anything come out of it.

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Richy Gonzalez
GB Racing - #24 ITA CRX
LAMIN-X Protective Films

[Geo]

Originally posted by Richy Gonzalez:
So, is the 300+ post thread going to make a difference?

Not if people just talk here and don't write to the CRB. Come on people, you can send them an e-mail even. It takes no more effort to send them an e-mail than it does to post here. What, 300+ posts, 3 letters?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[cherokee]

I can see both sides some parts I would want new. I doubt anyone would want to run around on used ball joints. But if the "stock" part is available anywhere then it is available and there is no reason to use a different part. Just because the dealer does not have the "original" part does not mean you get to run something different. The only way you should get different parts is if that part is truly NLA. I don't know about a 510 but I do know that I can get stock cams for Alfa,Fiat,Opel and my Triumph, I would find it hard to believe that there is no new stock cam in the world for a Datsun 510. I have had parts shipped in from Germany and England for some of my cars, you could not get the part in the US but they where available, thats the price you gotta pay sometimes. Kinda sounds to me like the brake disc that was talked about a couple pages ago. Thats why I think that the wheel thing will be a hard sell, I agree with the idea of using different sizes and all. But if a 100# 14" wheel is available then it is available. I think that the great out for the rules makers is that they told us "Entrants shall not be guaranteed the competitiveness of any car..." All they have to say is over on the web page this company sells steel wheels that fit our specs, 14x7 or what ever run those.

[Jake]

Richy + Geo,

Exactly!! I think I'm more frustrated with the membership at this point than the Board. 3 letters from 300 posts?

Cherokee,

Thing is they are NOT available. Those heavy custom made steel wheels are not available with a Front-drive center in a 14" wheel. (they are for 13")

[Banzai240]

Concerning replacement parts... The rules do NOT talk about having a supply of parts from aftermarket sources... The ITCS SPECIFICALLY addresses the availibility of parts from the manufacturer, and that is what this current issue is dealing with.

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[cherokee]

You missed my point...Can you get the wheels that came on your car from anywhere? Is the size that came on your car legal? If you can answer these two questions with a yes then I think that you are out of luck as the rules are written now. If you answer no then you should be able to run an different part, be it a wheel,cam or ash tray. But is should be limited to THAT car. Right now I am going to run 5.5" wheels on my ITB car. The car came with 5.5" wheels. I can find them all day...if I want 6" wheels I gotta pay, I am cool with that. The rules say Maximum allowable widths. Keep in mind that I do agree with you on this I am just telling you why I think it will be shot down. If you can go to Billy Bobs used wheel or any junk yard and get get your stock wheels and they meet the specs in the rules then they are available.

[cherokee]

"A request came in last year asking for alternate rotors for a particular car due to the dealer no longer carrying the factory pieces or them being otherwise NLA. However, when the I looked into it and made a few phone calls, I found that there was an abundant supply of these rotors from just about every auto parts supplier and aftermarket supplier. Since there is no requirement that these pieces be factory part numbers, there was obviously a very adequate supply. Basically, the requestor supplied the data, but we found data to the contrary"

So what is the difference. A rotor is ok to come from the aftermarket but "X" is not? If the aftermarket part has the same specs as the factory part why not use it.