Wheel diameter rule change Poll

[Jake]

Again, wrong argument. It doesn't matter what shorter sidewall height does or does not do. If we allow Joe Blow to replace his 225/45ZR13's with 225/45ZR15's it doesn't change the sidewall height. Your example using 14's only works out because there are no tires available in 14" with lower than a 50% aspect ratio. This fact only highlights the need to make this change. Tire manufacturers obviously find it unessesary to support these wheel sizes. Let's not wait until they decide 50% or 55% aspect ratios in 14's aren't profitable too!

[oanglade]

Mr. Sleeper, you forgot the part about increasing tire pressures having the same effect as a lower aspect ratio (therefore eliminating any perceived or actual advantage).



Like Geo said, aspect ratio does not affect the coefficient of friction OR the total available grip of the tire.

This rule should be put out for member input!


[This message has been edited by oanglade (edited November 28, 2003).]

[The Sleeper]

Well gentleman, I see that no matter what facts I present I am wrong. So In parting I will leave you this Quote:
"A number of factors affect the coefficient of friction of a tire. The construction techniques used in the tire itself including contact patch area, bias angle, the tire compound, the section height, ASPECT RATIO ,(hummm imangine that) and other factors "
And this is a quote (except for my little LOL input) from pages 33 and 34 of formula car technology by howdy holmes and don alexander.
I came here as a guest a stranger I presented knowledge backed up with "facts" not myth`s, I was met with distain and rebuttal even after presenting the facts. I have no place on this forum, you have proved to me it is your forum and that is the way you wish to keep it. So in parting gentlemen let us just say we agree that we disagree......

[Geo]

Originally posted by The Sleeper:
Well gentleman, I see that no matter what facts I present I am wrong.

Gee, I thought we were having and intelligent discussion. Is there no room in your mind for differing view points?

Originally posted by The Sleeper:
So In parting I will leave you this Quote:
"A number of factors affect the coefficient of friction of a tire. The construction techniques used in the tire itself including contact patch area, bias angle, the tire compound, the section height, ASPECT RATIO ,(hummm imangine that) and other factors "
And this is a quote (except for my little LOL input) from pages 33 and 34 of formula car technology by howdy holmes and don alexander.
I came here as a guest a stranger I presented knowledge backed up with "facts" not myth`s

Well, I don't know if a single quote from a single book qualifies as fact. I mean, I've been published in a major national magazine. Does that make everything I get published gospel? I think not. I can be as big a monkey as anyone. I've caught prominent technical writers get stuff way wrong that they should never have gotten wrong.

I'm not saying I know as much as a Goodyear tire engineer by any stretch. But I'm also not sure I buy that quote.

Originally posted by The Sleeper:
I was met with distain and rebuttal even after presenting the facts. I have no place on this forum, you have proved to me it is your forum and that is the way you wish to keep it. So in parting gentlemen let us just say we agree that we disagree......

Hey, I saw zero distain displayed. Rebuttal? Yes. Unless you think you infallible, you should expect that at times.

If you want to leave, no one can stop you. But you may want to reconsider. NOBODY was dissing you.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Jake:
Again, wrong argument. It doesn't matter what shorter sidewall height does or does not do...

Quite true, but for another more important reason as well.....

Wheel availability. We can argue all we like about whether opening up wheel sizes will create a competitive advantage. But one thing not in dispute is that if you are in the market for 14x7 wheels, you currently have one choice. Panasport. An expensive choice. A specialty racing wheel which IMHO is outside the philosophy of IT.

So, the big question that remains to be answered is what do we do about it? I certainly will support any request for a change in this rule. My personal feeling is that setting a maximum width and opening the diameter is easy peasy and puts everyone on the same footing (pun intended).



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by The Sleeper:
I have no place on this forum, you have proved to me it is your forum and that is the way you wish to keep it.

No, no, no... You don't leave just because of a disagreement...NO one would be here... Not everyone here disagrees with what you are saying..... Just go back an look on page two of this thread and you'll see where I began trying to detail the performance "benefits" of PLUS tire/wheel sizes...

Better to just present your arguments, back it with as much factual information as you can, and let everyone believe what they will...

To be honest... I find it very comforting knowing that I have the opportunity to race against drivers who are determined to stick to their guns and believe some of this stuff... Especially the ones who keep saying that the entire Racing and Automotive industry is wrong in using Plus tire/wheel combinations to improve the handling and performance of their cars!

In Reality... we're talking only TENTHS of a second one way or the other, so it's really pointless to sit here and argue about it, because 90% of us out here don't have the money and talent to extract any performance difference anyhow. The real issue to me is availability, and very few here disagree that 14" is getting tougher to find...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[oanglade]

Well, the Feb, 2004 Fastrack has a letter requesting that IT cars that run on 13" wheels be allowed to run on 14" or 15". The Club Racing Board says that there is still an adequate supply of wheels and tires.


No word on the supply of 14x7s...

------------------
Ony

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by oanglade:
The Club Racing Board says that there is still an adequate supply of wheels and tires.

I'm currently up to my ears in research work right now, but if someone else would like to help out...

The statement keeps getting made that there is an "adequate supply" of these wheels, but that is hardly quantitative. Someone needs to put together some facts and numbers.

A spreadsheet showing a list of suppliers, the various racing wheels sizes available from each, and some kind of cost comparison, would be nice to have. We need to take the "I feels...", the assumptions, and the unsubstantiated claims OUT of these rule making discussions and start gethering some facts.

In the brief amount of time I've had to look into this, I have found it difficult to locate 14x7" wheels. For that matter, if you go to, for instance, http:www.thetirerack.com and search on MANY of the popular cars (RX-7, Nissans, Acuras, etc...) and try to find 13" or 14" wheels in general, little or nothing shows up. 15"+ abound, however...

So, one has to question what "adequate" means in this respect, because IT racing isn't suppose to be about being one of the few who can afford to purchase that one-off item... it's suppose to be about affordable racing, and highly available cars and parts.

So, if you car is all prepped for next season and you want to help... Put together a well thought-out spreadsheet with the pertinent data and send it to me. I will compile the data along with any other data that might be pertinent and present it to the appropriate parties...

Let's let the facts speak for themselves...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

I say allow all cars up to 16" and be done with it...

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
I say allow all cars up to 16" and be done with it...

And that, my friends, was post #10,000 in the Rules and Regs Forum...

GA

[oanglade]

Darin,

You would think that if the CRB says that there are adequate quantities, then they already have the data and should be able to share it with us, right?

I mean, you don't think that they simply answered based on their opinion/belief without actually researching, right?



OK, seriously now, in the letter that I sent, I explained what you just said about the 14x7 wheels.

Pretty much this same thing:
"I have found it difficult to locate 14x7" wheels. For that matter, if you go to, for instance, http:www.thetirerack.com and search on MANY of the popular cars (RX-7, Nissans, Acuras, etc...) and try to find 13" or 14" wheels in general, little or nothing shows up. 15"+ abound, however..."

I thought that this would be enough for them to actually go and check themselves, if they thought I would be lying or something, but I guess I'll have to submit written statements from wheel manufacturers, along with catalogs and brochures, as well as make my own diagrams with crayons so that this gets some consideration beyond someone just writting "there are adequate supplies" of 13x6 wheels.

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Ony

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...make my own diagrams with crayons so that this gets some consideration...</font>

<chuckle!>

[Jake]

Well, I've done much of this homework - as I'm currently looking for 14x7's for my MR2. Here's the scoop for 14x7, 4x100 (Honda, Toyota, Mazda, etc) availability:

TSW Stealth: Discontinued 99-00 or so

Borbet Type T: Discontinued in 01

Revolution RFX: Discontinued 02-03

Panasport: Still available, $190+, however they will not fit my car (caliper interference)according to Panasport.

Circle Racing: May be possible to have
custom made in excess of $220+

Kodiak: May be able to have custom made. Very expensive.

[Jake]

Oh and to be completely truthful, I did find ONE commercially available (not custom built) wheel that would fit my application. Here's a pic:

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Jake:
Oh and to be completely truthful, I did find ONE commercially available (not custom built) wheel that would fit my application. Here's a pic:

I'd take 'em up on the gold finish option....it will compliment your red car better!


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Seriously though...I wonder if they are thinking of those "Diamond" brand steel wheels....they're cheap, and available on any size.

Kinda heavy, though....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Banzai240]

Ummm... I don't think wire wheels are legal for SCCA, are they??? (and YES, I do realize you were just kidding around... or at least I was REALLY hoping you were... )

DJ

[Geo]

Guys, I will just say that this is NOT a dead topic. I personally will not let this die. And remember, this does not benefit me at all, so there is zero conflict of interest.

Keep writing the letters. I'm serious. I know it's frustrating to keep being rejected, but if you keep the letters coming, I will keep working on the back end. I make you that promise.

I do know there are a number of options in 13x7 since I did a little informal research over the weekend, but 14x7 are still only available from Panasport unless we are talking about custom-made wheels and I defy anyone to argue with a straight face that custom-made wheels fall under the P&I of IT.

Anyway, if this is to happen, you the members have to keep writing. If you think I'm full of horsepucky, write that too, but I assure you the only wheels you'll find reasonably available in 14x7 are Panasports.

I also stand firm that larger wheels are not performance advantage, just a change in feel. I think the rule should be open to diameter, but I have no dog in this hunt, so whatever y'all would like, say so.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Ummm... I don't think wire wheels are legal for SCCA, are they??? (and YES, I do realize you were just kidding around... or at least I was REALLY hoping you were... )

DJ

Why wouldn't they be legal Darin?


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[SpeedyDave]

Jake you want second in line for my 14x7's if Peter doesn't take 'em?

I've also got a couple sets of 14x6 and 14x6.5 that I may need to clear out soon too - gotta chop up the rusted parts car to make room for another.

FWIW, I think the reason the board has said wheels are available is that it is fairly easy to get 14x6 wheels, but of course everyone wants the limit of the rules with for ITA is 14x7.