Wheel diameter rule change Poll

[Knestis]

Originally posted by oanglade:
How many letters does it take for this to be put on an agenda? ...

If ONE member makes an official request for a rules change, that should be enough to get it considered.

K

[Eric Parham]

If wheel diameter was allowed up to a size like 15 or maybe 16-inch, that might actually save money for competitors. But, the truth is that making wheel diameter free would allow the already front-running higher hp cars to fill in their weaknesses with better handling, better cooling 19" wheels (for example) at extreme expense. Is that really what we're after?

The lower hp better handling cars would benefit MUCH less (if at all). Get it? No one that I know of in B or C is truely having any trouble finding 6" rims. That might be slightly different for the S and A folks limited to 13s (how many of those are there?) and 14s (to a lesser extent) at 7" width. IMHO, that's part of the bargain that we knowingly signed onto in order to run in Improved Touring.

I guess I might even support an increase up to 15" in order to encourage newcomers (even though it would make my stash of 30-40 14-inch wheels and rubber virtually worthless), but I think that anything greater than 15" would be a mistake.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Eric Parham:
If wheel diameter was allowed up to a size like 15 or maybe 16-inch, that might actually save money for competitors. But, the truth is that making wheel diameter free would allow the already front-running higher hp cars to fill in their weaknesses with better handling, better cooling 19" wheels (for example) at extreme expense.

Would it really? I for one sincerely doubt it. I don't think there is an IT car in the paddock that would benefit from 19" wheels. For that matter, I don't believe there is an IT car in the paddock that would benefit from 17" wheels. They might feel better, but given the same width, will probably corner about the same and the larger wheels will kill acceleration.

Originally posted by Eric Parham:
I guess I might even support an increase up to 15" in order to encourage newcomers (even though it would make my stash of 30-40 14-inch wheels and rubber virtually worthless), but I think that anything greater than 15" would be a mistake.

OK, a couple of points here. First is do we value your stash above the cost of custom wheels (or even Panasports) to a new competitor or even one who has to replace broken wheels?

Second, on the limit of 15" wheels, there are already cars approved for 16" wheels and as later model cars are classified, even larger diamter wheels will be allowed.

Third, the fact is there is only one source beyond cu$tom wheels (Panasport). Is this something we want for the club? I think not. IMHO it's time this rule is changed to reflect contemporary aftermarket realities.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
If ONE member makes an official request for a rules change, that should be enough to get it considered.

K

Absolutely.

But, a groundswell of support (or non-support) of an issue may sway CB and ITAC members.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Eric Parham]

George, all good comments. But also remember that technology marches on. The added weight of the larger wheels will be less in the future (or for more $$$ now), and lower profile tires (again more $$$, even compared to Panasports) could mean no increase in overall diameter.

IMHO, minimizing sidewall flex and contact patch squirm will ALWAYS increase ultimate cornering grip, even if it's harder to set up and drive. So I'll stand by my original comment that the larger wheels (even 19") WILL increase the handling potential of many IT cars, in time.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited November 20, 2003).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by Eric Parham:
IMHO, minimizing sidewall flex and contact patch squirm will ALWAYS increase ultimate cornering grip....

I disagree. I will not. What the sidewall flex and contact patch squirm will affect is the feel and some transient response.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
I disagree. I will not. What the sidewall flex and contact patch squirm will affect is the feel and some transient response.

Hey George... WANNA RACE???



DJ

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">We need people to keep writing the CB about this...</font>

Somehow, it's hard to get all worried about the diameter of our wheels when we're competing against BMWs and RX-7s with four-cylinder front wheel drive cars.

The cars that a change such as this would affect most have a lot more important things to write the Competition Board about than whether or not we can use 15" diameter wheels. Save your letters and complaints for stuff that will actually make a freakin' difference.

Frustrated in Connecticut

[Knestis]

It strikes me that this issue is really driven by the lack of wide, small diameter wheels. There are enough 14x6 4x100 alloy wheels in the world for the forseeable future since they were a common OEM size but ask for a 7" wide version and - poof - nothinng.

Make ITA cars run on a maximum of 6" width and a large part of the problem goes away.(Remember that's how it actually was not so long ago so I'm only kidding a little bit.) Allow ITC cars with 13s to step up to 14x6 and their options expand.

Conversations about 19-inch wheels simply aren't germain. The point from the outset has been cost and - seriously, this time - a simple allowance for a +1 diameter increase over the ITCS specline wheel size WILL address the issue and WILL NOT be a major applecart upsetter.

K

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
...a simple allowance for a +1 diameter increase over the ITCS specline wheel size WILL address the issue and WILL NOT be a major applecart upsetter.

K

I would agree...

DJ

[Allen Brown]

I've been following this thread for quite some time. And it seems the biggest concern is that allowing a larger diameter wheel (while maintaining same existing width) is going to change the race results. I have to say there is an extrememly low chance of that happening.

I run 14x6 w/225-50-14 (RA-1)and 15x7 w/225-45-15 (Ecsta). This summer on the same day, my best time was using the 14x6, by .2 sec. Yes, the driver can more than make up that small difference since I'm starting to get consistant, but still have a lot to learn. I do agree the 15x7 feel better at turn-in. I believe this due to the shorter sidewall, but that didn't amount to any advantage.

As stated before, each vehicle will respond slightly different to the change....but I haven't seen any improvement in times.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Hey George... WANNA RACE???



DJ

Sure.

Come down to Texas tomorrow. I'll be at TWS.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
It strikes me that this issue is really driven by the lack of wide, small diameter wheels. There are enough 14x6 4x100 alloy wheels in the world for the forseeable future since they were a common OEM size but ask for a 7" wide version and - poof - nothinng.

Amen. I'd like to see the club/CB/ITAC address this before there are absolutely no 14x7 wheels available new except for crazy expensive custom wheels. That just does not fit the whole concept of IT racing IMHO. The only 14x7 wheels available new at this time are already 3x the price of what I can pick up new 15x7 for.

Originally posted by Knestis:
Conversations about 19-inch wheels simply aren't germain. The point from the outset has been cost and - seriously, this time - a simple allowance for a +1 diameter increase over the ITCS specline wheel size WILL address the issue and WILL NOT be a major applecart upsetter.

I think this is viable, although I still thin the fear of larger wheels is based purely in non-fact-based ideas and beliefs that just keep being retold from one person to another.

FWIW, even if we allow +1 (which would allow me 17" wheels) I'd still race on the 15" wheels on my 944. The larger wheels wouldn't be worth the money to me since I don't believe they would increase performance.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Eric Parham]

Originally posted by Knestis:
The point from the outset has been cost and - seriously, this time - a simple allowance for a +1 diameter increase over the ITCS specline wheel size WILL address the issue and WILL NOT be a major applecart upsetter.

Makes sense to me.

[RacerBill]

I agree that a solution should be developed that would lower costs and at the same time be as fair as possible to all. Shoot me now, because I really don't have a suggestion at this time. I do know that no matter what, everyone is not going to be completely happy.

I am replying to this thread to mention that on this forum, in the Tech Center, there is an article that attempts to answer some of the questions raised here - do larger diameter tires handle better? Please read the article and reply. I would love to hear other opinions of the results.

[Speed Raycer]

1"?????? Oh great! Now all the 1st gen RX7 guys have the option to go out and buy 14x7 wheels I'd be for limits of at least +2" or maximum of +3"

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Scott
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

[Geo]

Originally posted by Speed Raycer:
1"?????? Oh great! Now all the 1st gen RX7 guys have the option to go out and buy 14x7 wheels I'd be for limits of at least +2" or maximum of +3"

Therein lies the difficult part of limiting sizes. Do you set a size? 15"? 16"? Now we are not accomodating cars that will be classified in the future that come with larger diameter wheels.




------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Jake]

How about this (taken from GCR)

17.1.4.7.a.1

Currently:

Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels.

Change to:

Cars originally equipped with twelve (12), thirteen (13), or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit larger wheel diameters up to fifteen (15) inches.

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Do you set a size?</font>

You guys are making this far too difficult. What's the stated problem? Finding 14x7 wheels? What's the solution? Same as what we did decades ago for 12 inch wheels:

GCR 17.1.4.D.7.a.1:

Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) or fifteeen (15) inch wheels and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. ITS and ITA cars originally equipped with fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.


Ask for input from the membership, use those calculus skills to tally it up. Make decision regardless of input. Give it a thumbs-up or down.

See? Easy.

[Jake]

Great minds think alike. (and at the same time)