ECU Rules from Old GCR (1995 & 2000)

[jlucas]

If someone has a copy of an older GCR, perferablly 1995 & 2000, I'd be interested in hearing the wording of the ECU rules at that time. I'm working on a proposal for a changes to the current rules that doesn't penalize non-flash OBD2 cars of which a lot are being coming eligible for IT now.

This is the section that I'm looking for: 17.1.4.D.6

Summary of current rules:
-unmodified OEM ECU connection to the wiring harness (so an OBD2 to OBD1 harness adapter is illegal)
-all modification must fit the stock ECU box (no piggyback systems)

Also in the 2003 GCR this section is highlighted as being reworded for 2003, what was changed just for 2003?

Jeremy

[Greg Amy]

IIRC, no ECU mods were allowed at all in Improved Touring until 2001, was it?

I'm curious about your purpose. What do you mean by not "[penalizing] non-flash OBD2 cars"? Just because you're not OBD2 doesn't mean you can't modify your ECU. You can certainly modify the stock ECU board to incorporate replacement chips, boards, and components. In fact, I've heard of some cars that have Motec engine management systems inside the stock ECU housing connecting to stock unmodified wiring harnesses, and it's fully legal to the rules (but far, far from the philosophical intent...)

You're limited only by your imagination and finances...

[Banzai240]

2001 ITCS 17.1.4.D.6 -

Fuel-Injected cars may alter fuel mixture through the modification of the resistance values of the sensors which feed the computer. The computer shall remain unaltered. Air induction/orfice size(s) shall not be altered, and no new orrifes shall be created by disconnecting standard equipment. External throttle linkage to the standard fuel injection may be modified or changed.

2002 ITCS 17.1.4.D.6 -
Fuel-Injected cars may alter fuel mixture through the modification of the resistance values of the sensors which feed the computer. The computer shall remain unaltered. Air induction/orfice size(s) shall not be altered, and no new orrifes shall be created by disconnecting standard equipment. External throttle linkage to the standard fuel injection may be modified or changed. Adjustable fuel pressure regulators are permitted.

2003 ITCS 17.1.4.D.6 -
Fuel injected cars may alter or replace the engine management computer, or ECU, provided that all modifications are done within the original OEM ECU housing. Only the stock (unmodified) OEM ECU connection to the wiring harness may be used. The allowance to modify the ECU in no way permits the addition of wiring, sensors, or piggybacked computers outside of the OEM ECU housing. The stock (unmodified) wiring harness must be used. Adjustable fuel pressure regulators are permitted.

The "no new orrifices" part was replaced with new air intake wording the requires all air to enter through the intake tract, and the throttle linkage wording appears to have already been covered under 17.1.4.D.2.

The oldest GCR/ITCS I have available is the 2001... I think I have a 2000 and 1999 around here somewhere, but I'll have to look...

Hope this helps...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[jlucas]

Originally posted by grega:
I'm curious about your purpose. What do you mean by not "[penalizing] non-flash OBD2 cars"? Just because you're not OBD2 doesn't mean you can't modify your ECU. You can certainly modify the stock ECU board to incorporate replacement chips, boards, and components. In fact, I've heard of some cars that have Motec engine management systems inside the stock ECU housing connecting to stock unmodified wiring harnesses, and it's fully legal to the rules

Thanks for the info guys, I didn't realize the ECU thing was such a new development since I've only been racing for 2 years. What I meant by penalize is that it is much easier and less expensive for flash-ECU cars to modify the ECU. So the penalty for non-flash cars is simply cost (in some cases quite a bit), which seems to be against the whole idea behind the class. This also spills over into Touring as well. I'll only have specific knowledge about Hondas & Acuras and no one can modify a non-flash ODB2 chipset cost effectively (perhaps not at all since even Hondata doesn't do it), so no one does it. Basically for OBD2 H&A non-flash cars it requires an aftermarket system that fits into the stock box ($$$), or a custom made ECU which OBD1 board with OBD2 connectors ($$). So it seems silly to have the requirement worded in such a way that just adds unnecessary cost.

I imagine that non-flash ECUs of other makes will have a similar situation.

Jeremy

[planet6racing]

Nevermind. Just re-read the posts and I was being redundant again.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited December 29, 2003).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by jlucas:
Basically for OBD2 H&A non-flash cars it requires an aftermarket system that fits into the stock box ($$$), or a custom made ECU which OBD1 board with OBD2 connectors ($$).

You might want to research this a bit more before drawing any conclusions... The OBD2 boards are so much simpler to reprogram, you don't even have to add any daughterboards, etc to modify them. Most that I know of are, in fact, reprogramable in their existing factory configuration. The older OBD1 boards require the add-on cards in-order to add the flash memory that can be reprogrammed, or at least that's the way my Nissan/Jim Wolf box is...

Make sure that whatever you send in for consideration is well thought out and researched, I guess is what I'm saying, and provide as REAL DATA as you can (suppliers, numbers, factual information, etc. )...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Personally, I'd like to see the ECU rule reworded to require the stock circuitboard be retained in the stock location to effectively eliminate the stand-alones that are being put in gutted ECU boxes.

Now, I'm sure somebody would figure a way to still get a stand-alone inside, but I can't imagine how.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[bldn10]

"Now, I'm sure somebody would figure a way to still get a stand-alone inside, but I can't imagine how."

How about this, George - leave the OEM board in place but deactivate it; install WIFI, and do all the engine management from a laptop back in the trailer. I don't know if it is technically feasible but, if so, you can be sure someone will do it.

What's this I hear about the Bimmers running M3 ECUs - how is that?

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
Now, I'm sure somebody would figure a way to still get a stand-alone inside, but I can't imagine how.

George... Have you taken appart a Wolf modified ECU for your Nissan??? I have taken a peak inside mine, as well as inside a stock core that I have... it's NOT really that hard to imagine!



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[jlucas]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
You might want to research this a bit more before drawing any conclusions... The OBD2 boards are so much simpler to reprogram, you don't even have to add any daughterboards, etc to modify them. Most that I know of are, in fact, reprogramable in their existing factory configuration.

Trust me I've look into it extensively. Non-flash Honda & Acura OBD2 boards are not simple to reprogram, that's my whole point.

Thanks for the tip about information to include.

Jeremy

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by Geo:
Personally, I'd like to see the ECU rule reworded to require the stock circuitboard be retained in the stock location to effectively eliminate the stand-alones that are being put in gutted ECU boxes.

Now, I'm sure somebody would figure a way to still get a stand-alone inside, but I can't imagine how.

Geo,

When the proposal was still under consideration, I wrote the CB asking for a rule written similar to the Grand Am Cup rule which stated:

The OEM hardware must remain factory stock, however modifications to the software contained in the ECU are allowed.

The rule is simple, concise, and wouldn't have needed further clarification with the silly wiring harness wording.



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Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by Chris Wire:
Geo,

When the proposal was still under consideration, I wrote the CB asking for a rule written similar to the Grand Am Cup rule which stated:

The OEM hardware must remain factory stock, however modifications to the software contained in the ECU are allowed.

The rule is simple, concise, and wouldn't have needed further clarification with the silly wiring harness wording.

That would make things difficult for some cars because they have soldered chips, but then again, when is anything in racing easy.

I think you're right. That would be a better rule.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[oanglade]

That would mean that only those with ECU's that can be reprogrammed without changing any hardware could do this modification and all others would have to stay stock.

Might as well just leave the old rule that all ECU's and software must be stock, but those cars with carbs could change the jets.

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Ony

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">That would mean that only those with ECU's that can be reprogrammed without changing any hardware...</font>

'Zactly.

George, that's a BAD wording on the rules. Think about it: any car prior to OBD2 will be left out, including the B13 Nissans. JWT "reprograms" the ECU by removing the chip and resoldering in a socket for a replacement chip. Under the above wording, with no allowance to modifications of the hardware, this would be illegal.

A better solution would be to incorporate wording - as offered above - that would require the original board to be used. This situation is a perfect case where someone was trying to out-think the competitors a got bitch-slapped because they were not imaginative enough; why go to such lengths? Make it more general and enforce the hell out of it, slapping the wrists of anyone trying "torture" the interpretation and intent of the rules. When you torture the rule verbiage you torture the interpretations.

Want to get rid of the Motecs and similar? Remove the words "or replace" from the current rule. I don't know who came up with that rule, but they should be flogged.

Jeremy, I understand your concern, but ECUs have been reprogrammed from the moment they were used, LONG before OBD2. The solution was that aftermarket manufacturers would take in your ECU, desolder certain components from the board, and resolder in sockets that would allow swapping of different EPROMs. To change the program, you change the EPROM.

With a market as large as the Honda, I have to imagine that this is offered for your car. Sure, you can't do it with your laptop at the track, but that is the way virtually all of the cars with ECUs in IT today are handled.

Greg

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grega:
JWT "reprograms" the ECU by removing the chip and resoldering in a socket for a replacement chip.

That's NOT how my JWT unit is done... Ours were done by soldering a "daughtercard" to the factory supplied jumper pads on the mainboard. The daughtercard contains the removable EPROM sockets, and has two-pairs of removable EPROMS... (total 4)...

The rules need to be generic enough so as not to offer any one make a particular advantage in this area over another. I like the idea of requiring that the factory mainboard be utilized or in-place, but I don't know if I'd start restricting modifications to JUST the mainboard...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Originally posted by grega:
George, that's a BAD wording on the rules. Think about it: any car prior to OBD2 will be left out, including the B13 Nissans. JWT "reprograms" the ECU by removing the chip and resoldering in a socket for a replacement chip. Under the above wording, with no allowance to modifications of the hardware, this would be illegal.

<snip>

Jeremy, I understand your concern, but ECUs have been reprogrammed from the moment they were used, LONG before OBD2. The solution was that aftermarket manufacturers would take in your ECU, desolder certain components from the board, and resolder in sockets that would allow swapping of different EPROMs. To change the program, you change the EPROM.

Greg, I thought about the JWT ECUs and how they do it. However, if a stock ECU with a reprogrammed EPROM was the rule, you would simply unsolder the old EPROM as you state above and solder in the new one.

Whoa, you say? You can't do that because it says stock? I say it's covered under the part about repairs meeting factory specs. Unsoldering an EPROM and resoldering a new one in would certainly be a repair to factory specs from where I sit.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
The rules need to be generic enough so as not to offer any one make a particular advantage in this area over another. I like the idea of requiring that the factory mainboard be utilized or in-place, but I don't know if I'd start restricting modifications to JUST the mainboard...

I agree with not giving one make an advantage. So, where do you draw the line? Would JWT desolder and resolder EPROMS for IT? I'm sure they would. For a price. What in racing doesn't come with a price? Actually, for the early 944 this is exactly what people do to use different chips. The same could be done with Nissans.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Unsoldering an EPROM and resoldering a new one in would certainly be a repair to factory specs from where I sit.</font>

Eek, George. I don't want to get into a rules nerd argument, but I'd say that that is a tortured argument. Show me in the FSM where that service repair is called out...?

[jlucas]

Originally posted by grega:
Jeremy, I understand your concern, but ECUs have been reprogrammed from the moment they were used, LONG before OBD2. The solution was that aftermarket manufacturers would take in your ECU, desolder certain components from the board, and resolder in sockets that would allow swapping of different EPROMs. To change the program, you change the EPROM.

I'll say it again. From everything I've been able to find out, this is NOT possible on a H&A non-flash OBD2 ECU, which is why there are none for sale. All the H&A boards out there with different chips are OBD1 boards, hence the need for a adapter harness ($) or a custom soldered OBD2 connectors ($$).

Jeremy Lucas
Kumho - Cobalt Brakes - Comptech

Im working on a EMP generator built into my alternator thats going to take me to the front in a hurry, should take the CRB 6 months to react in which time ill have it wrapped up.