where do we get the factory specs???

[oanglade]

I know of people that have been arguing succesfully their way out of a protest following this in SS, IT and SM.

For example, someone protests someone elses differential in say SSB where it is supposed to be completely stock. The protest is not about the final drive ratio, but about the differential itself (modifications to components to reduce weight, etc.).

The protestee argues to the tech officials that the factory manual does not list specifications for weight of the part or any specifications other than final drive ratio and design type (VLSD, Torsen, Clutch type LSD, Open), so nothing can be gained from tearing it down, so why waste the time.

Tech agrees and the protestee is free to go without even a visual inspection of the parts.

I've seen this myself I've and also heard about other cases of the same argument being used succesfully.

------------------
Ony

[RSTPerformance]

Does the protester have to prove someone is guilty if documentation is not in the "shop manual" or does the protested need to provide documentation to prove innocence?

I understand that if the protester has documentation then as the protested you better have some sort of documentation or you will be defending yourself in an appeal.

If no one has any documentation is the protest thrown out?

Thanks again for all the responses. I find this to be an interesting topic to hear different views.

Raymond Blethen

PS: Thanks for the open views and lack of arguments!!!

[Knestis]

Originally posted by oanglade:
... the factory manual does not list specifications for weight of the part or any specifications other than final drive ratio and design type (VLSD, Torsen, Clutch type LSD, Open), so nothing can be gained from tearing it down, so why waste the time.

This is evidence of a bigger problem. I have seen protests informally "set aside" - where the officials have a chat with the protestor and present basically the same scenario before they "officially" accept the paperwork.

In one case there were semi-public conversations among the decision makers about simply not wanting to be dealing with the protest when everyone else was at the workers' party.

Kirk

[cherokee]

Does anyone have info on an average age of an IT car? I think that it would be very intresting to find that out. I would bet it would be over 20yrs. I can't believe that 1983 was 20yrs ago..boy I feel old I also think if you are running a popular car you have a better chance to find stock parts then if you run an odd ball....but that is sliding into the "I built the wrong car" deal again.

Why can't we just adjust the one car in question. If the Wombat can ONLY get a better cam put more weight on the car or make it run skinner tires...or do whatever to slow it back down. I never understood why every other class could be adjusted but not IT.

[apr67]

Originally posted by cherokee:
Why can't we just adjust the one car in question. If the Wombat can ONLY get a better cam put more weight on the car or make it run skinner tires...or do whatever to slow it back down. I never understood why every other class could be adjusted but not IT.

Ok, lets take this out of theory and put it in practice. In ITB we have the Alfa's. Alfa no longer exists in this country. I am told that the only 'factory manual' (I could be wrong) is in Itallian. I've heard that the cars had many different cams. Regardless, I am not able to go to a factory authorized dealer in this country and get a new U.S. spec CAM for my 197x Alfa. So, as long as my cams look OEM (i.e. Don't say 'Crane' on them), and meet any max lift spec that is in the Itallian manual, how can you ever have a protest upheld against me?

Same thing would apply to the uberfast Volvo's.

The SCCA has much better documentation on the cars that came from showroom stock in the last 10 years. But before that?

Alan

[Knestis]

Originally posted by cherokee:
... Why can't we just adjust the one car in question. ...

The primary differentiation between IT and Production - at least philosophically - is whether or not this approach is applied.

I am still in favor of keeping our collective finger in the dike on this point - take it out and allow even ONE model-specific hardware allowance/adjustment and we'll be up to our butts in muddy water in no time.

K

[MMiskoe]

Why wouldn't this sort of thing be considered similar to body and electrical repair where the GCR says repairs need to be made in a fashion similar to OEM/dealer work? I forget the exact wording, but it basically tells you to put it back together using the same methods it was built w/. Same should be true for non-specified parts - ie get a battery that is close to what it was delivered w/. If that is not defined, pick one that fits in the tray and has same amp hours as a car of similar size & age. I know the battery is just an example, but its obvious that the cars were built with the intention of runing on the street for average Joe Blow, not chasing lap times on the track. W/ that in mind, any mod that is not defined, ask "would the dealer have sent it out the door that way?" ie would the dealer deck the block so much that it now requires 100 octane fuel, or would they have just gotten a new block? Would the dealer turn a warped flywheel down so far that it now launches the car like a toggle switch and has potential for exploding? No, the dealer would install a new one.

Not a quantifiable response, so it comes back to who creates the better case.

[PFM Racing]

[This message has been edited by PFM Racing (edited December 18, 2003).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Does the protester have to prove someone is guilty if documentation is not in the "shop manual" or does the protested need to provide documentation to prove innocence?

The good book says "protestor AND/OR protestee"

Too subjective when you don't have reasonable people involved.

[cherokee]

But we already do allow specific cars special allowances:

-Lexan rear windows
-Alternate rear bearing and disc brakes are allowed....
-Plastic fenders.....

It is all in the book. I don't think that you can lump everything in one basket. If you allow a Fiero to replace it's rear glass or a Honda to have plastic fenders...then by that logic everyone should have them. The cars are just too different.

[PFM Racing]

Originally posted by apr67:
I am told that the only 'factory manual' (I could be wrong) is in Itallian. Alan

Actually, Vick Autosports in Fort Worth has quite a few factory Alfa manuals in English. So if you need one, I would try them.

Jennifer

[ITSRX7]

The way it works in Solo is simple:

The Protestor writes his papers on the items in question. The Protestee provides the factory shop manual to the Protest Committee and the Protestor. That source is reviewed for pertinant information.

If the specific information is not in the factory shop manual (which the Protestee is required to produce by rule), the burden then shifts to the Protestor to provide the appropriate documentation to support his/her protest.

I do not belive that both parties SHARE the burden of proof, it just shifts from one to the other depending on the availablilty of the information.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Knestis]

Point of interest from Feb FasTrack:

Not recommended...

ITC
1. Allow 1968-73 Nissan PL510 to use an
alternate camshaft. (Christiansen, Cox)
This would establish a bad precedence for
replacement engine parts.

K

[Geo]

Originally posted by cherokee:
Why can't we just adjust the one car in question. If the Wombat can ONLY get a better cam put more weight on the car or make it run skinner tires...or do whatever to slow it back down.

Wow. Sounds like Production.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[cherokee]

Is that bad? I thought we wanted Comp Adj's. Correct miss classed cars....and all that.
I don't think that it will be long before IT requires fuel cells and fire systems, we already can gut the drivers door. Sounds like prod. I think that the days of the dual purpose IT car are numbered, I am not sure if that is good or bad but we already have one foot on the slippery slope.
I always thought that IT was a place for SS cars to go when the got too old, the age of an SS car is in black and white. Maybe LP/prod is where IT cars go after they hit x# of years. If only every old IT car had a place to go...other than vintage. Maybe grandfather in cars already built for IT but if the car you are building is over 20 it can't be IT it has to go LP/Prod.
Note:
The IT car I am building is 31 yrs old.

[Geo]

Originally posted by cherokee:
Is that bad?

Yes.

Originally posted by cherokee:
I thought we wanted Comp Adj's.

I don't know of anyone who wants Production style comp adjustments for IT. In fact, the membership has been very clear it does not want that. About all that is wanted is a mechanism to correct past errors.

Originally posted by cherokee:
Correct miss classed cars....and all that.

Actually, this already exists. What does not exist is correcting weights that have been set poorly.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[cherokee]

You can't change classes for a car that is too fast for ITS. And I think that just adding weight to a car is limiting your options. I think that other adjustments will come in time, people resist change. Remember all the talk when the computers where opened up, lots did not like that but it happened anyway...and it that change is better in the long run. I think that the days are comming of specific adjustments/allowances to specific cars are comming. The spec lines of the cars are going to get bigger. I also think that the classes need to be re-shuffled a bit.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by cherokee:
You can't change classes for a car that is too fast for ITS. And I think that just adding weight to a car is limiting your options.

True, but the proposed PCAs didn't limit adjustments to weight.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Remember all the talk when the computers where opened up, lots did not like that but it happened anyway...and it that change is better in the long run. </font>

It IS????? Why?? Please explain. The rumours of what is actually being wedged in the 'stock' box are pretty sobering.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> I also think that the classes need to be re-shuffled a bit.</font>

Agreed, and this is the ONLY reason, other than very rare circumstances, that the spec line should carry any model specific modifiers. In the case of movement of a car from A to B there should be a spec line modifier allowing the model to maintain the 7" wheel width it originally raced on in it's previous class.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[cherokee]

1) How else do they adjust the cars then if not by weight? I could only think of a handfull.

2) To answer that question we first have to understand why they allowed the rule to be changed in the first place. I am sure that everyone has their own thoughts on his.

3) On my car I can still put 205's on a 6" rim...it will not make any difference.

Like I was saying I think the CPU thing is better (for the club) in the long run...I don't necessarily agree with it I think that the CPU should be stock...but they can't police software in F1 what makes us think that they can in IT. I think that the computer mods can do lots more then a modified cam will, and thats what I mean that we have one foot on the slippery slope...if "X" is allowed for whatever reason what about "Y" and "Z".

I actually agree with Geo "When parts are NLA and they wear out, game over." But only if there is some other place for your and your car to go play.

[Quickshoe]

While looking for a rule regarding the brake rotors and the use of non-OEM parts (other thread) I came across:

ITCS D.1.p "where factory specifications are absent or unclear...the Club may establish an acceptable dimension and/or allowable tolerance from stock"

If it doesn't list a spec the Club may establish the dimension?