VW "G-Grind" camshaft...

[Bill Miller]

Darin,

Two things.

One, I didn't think you were a person that looked at the absolute nth degree of a definition. And two, I thought you said it was up to the requestor to do the research, not the ITAC.

Have you had a change of heart?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
One, I didn't think you were a person that looked at the absolute nth degree of a definition.

I don't, just the plain and simple, or "untortured" definition... The nth degree would be to require EVERY component of the car that wasn't still the original part number to be listed... I'm just suggesting that perhaps the important pieces should be "per the rule"... Camshafts get protested... Widget support brackets, seals, and bearings typically do not...

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I thought you said it was up to the requestor to do the research, not the ITAC.</font>

That wasn't me... it was George. Does it appear to you that I mind doing this kind of research??

I think it's my responsibility as an ITAC member to be sure I understand the issue and as many factors involved as I can before making a decision. Some cases that's easier to do than others. I'm just trying to do the best I can to serve the members of the IT community, and this was an issue (the 510 camshaft) that I saw needed further investigation...

I appreciate all the help I've gotten from our members, both in the racing community and from our CB Liasons, BoD members, and Jeremy, the Technical manager... All have helped to put pieces in place. I got a note today saying that our next batch of letters has 30 pages of information concerning this issue, so I'm hoping that that, combined with what I've gathered so far, will be enough to make an informed decision...

I'll let you know...
Darin

[Bill Miller]

What's interesting is that the VW camshafts don't have the p/n on the cam itself. There are some markings and numbers, but no full part number. I don't know anything about the Datsuns in this regard.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
That wasn't me... it was George. Does it appear to you that I mind doing this kind of research??

It has been brought to my attention that the above sentance may have given some people the wrong impression of George... I shouldn't have put the two sentances together, because they relay the wrong message. The way I wrote this makes George out to be someone who isn't willing to do research, which is NOT the case at all. As a matter of fact, he contacted Nissan motorsports and has been working with me on this the whole time. My comment was simply to correct Bill's comment that it was me that said that the requestor should do their own research (which I never said, but do believe, right along with George, whole heartedly), and then the second part was to make light of the fact that this particular issue has seen me on a relentless quest for an answer. The two sentance really had NOTHING to do with each other, and any implications that George isn't willing to do research were completely an unfortunate result of mistakenly placing the two sentances together.

I assure you all that George is very actively working for the good of the IT community, and I appologize to him for any misconceptions that this post may have brought about...

That being said, I'd like to reitterate what George has said in another post, and that is that if you want to have your requests taken seriously and want your case to have merrit, you MUST provide the appropriate documentation and send us (the CB/ITAC/BoD) the information that YOU have to back your position... You are, after all, often the experts on the topic...

Thanks,


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 24, 2003).]

[eh_tony!!!]

A few questions here..

Why don't the datsun competitors use the superceeded cam and appeal any protest? If one could show that the VW superceeded option was approved, but not in-fact listed on the spec line in the following year's GCR, then I would feel that precedent has been set. Didn't the G-grind cam become legal through successful appeal anyway?

While your on the 510, I was tolkd some years back that the '210' heads were superceeded by the 'W52' heads as well. The later having roughly 1/2 the combustion chamber volume of the first. Don't know if anyone has first hand knowledge, but it would be an interesting point.

[Bill Miller]

Tony,

That's one of the best arguements yet for a casebook. But it does beg another question. If the CoA ruled this item (VW G-grind cam) legal, why was it not listed on the spec line in the '94 ITCS? Can the CB overrule the CoA? Would the same 'end of year' time limit apply to someone who had sent their money in for an official ruling? (ok, that's three questions).

Tony,

As far as the Datsun head issue, it may be a superceding part, but I doubt that a head w/ 1/2 the CC volume is going to be able to make the CR limit.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Harry]

I submitted the request to have the 510 cam superseded for several reasons. The most important one was that the new cam I used in '97 is no longer legal today because the SCCA Competition Board knows it and all my competitors knew it because I advertised the coating sponsors all over my car. The cam was coated.
The truth is that I only listed the SCCA Appeals # 93-60-MW (supplied to me by Ryan Williams)in my request stating that VW set the Precedence to use a superseded cam as the stock cam was NLA. I made no sugestion that the "G" cam is illegal or be denied as the legal cam.

The "G" cam represented a change from 0.405 lift to 0.423 & the duration went fron 225 degrees to 283 degrees.

In my request the cams lift would remain the same as the late 510 cam and there would only be a + & - 8 degrees duration adjustment. My main reason is to have the ability to at least be able to use a new camshaft. The "G" Cam would still have more lift and duration.

The data below if correct does show that the ITC VW's benefited by a 0.018" lift increase and 58 degrees duration improvement.

http://www.autotech.com/cam_vt.htm

The following data is listed on Autotech site. As to it's accuracy I am only assuming it is correct.

8 VALVE CAMSHAFTS
Perhaps the most important thing to remember when searching for that "perfect camshaft" is this:
Don't be mislead by the numbers! The lift and duration of a camshaft are not the only features that make a cam behave the way it does. Things like ramp profile, lobe center, and nose shape all affect a cam's behavior. It is virtually impossible to determine exactly how a cam will perform, or where it makes power, just by looking at the numbers. Ultimately, all of a camshaft's design aspects play a role in how it will perform.


Solid Lifter Camshafts

From 1975 to the middle of 1980, the specs of the original cam were 0.405 inches lift with 225 degrees duration at .050" check clearance. On later cars, including the Rabbit GTi and Jetta GLi models, the cams were made more docile for pollution control and had a lift of only 0.387 inches, with slightly less duration than earlier.

European GTI Camshaft
What we consider to be the best all-around street cam for solid lifter engines. Originally used on the European Golf 1 GTi, this cam is called the European "G" cam (is also sometimes called the "N" cam) featuring a 0.423" lift and a duration of 283 degrees (225 degrees at 0.050" check clearance). Power gains are seen from 2000 up to 6500 rpm, netting an 8 to 10 horsepower gain. SportTuned valve springs are not required, but are highly recommended for the best top-end performance.
Lifetime warranty from Autotech.

European GTi Camshaft 10.109.423 $119.95

I did however request that if approved I wanted it listed on the spec line.

I do feel that I should refrain from any additional comments.
I have added my email address if anyone wishes to contact me directly.
Regards,
Harry

[email protected]



[This message has been edited by Harry (edited October 24, 2003).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by eh_tony!!!:
A few questions here..

Why don't the datsun competitors use the superceeded cam and appeal any protest?

Tony and Bill,
All good questions... Basically, I don't know the answer. I suppose they could, and perhaps they will. I'm looking into the cam issue specifically, because we have a request to do so in the form of a letter sent to the CB, so it's an official agenda item.

Speaking strictly as a competitor, if I was racing a 510, I'd likely do those things... But, the gentleman who wrote the request is insistant on doing this by the book to avoid any at the track issues...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Banzai240]

OK everyone,

I've made an official request to the CB to have them look into the issue of adding the correct VW part number for the "G"-grind (or "N"-grind, since it officially supersedes the "G") to the specficiation line for the appropriate VW ITC cars. The documentation exists, and there are individuals there who were involved in the original CoA decision, so I have every confidence that the appropriate action will take place. It is my hope that this will close the book, and the questions, about the legitimacy of this allowance for the VWs once and for all.

The 510 cam issue is still being discussed and data is being gathered. I'll let you know what is happening with this as soon as the data is in place.

Thank you for the information and patience in dealing with this. The opportunity was there for this to get out of hand, and I think we all handled the situation in a way that shows we are human, but also shows we have class... Working together is great...

Thanks again.

Sincerely,



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[badal]

Why don't the datsun competitors use the superceeded cam and appeal any protest? If one could show that the VW superceeded option was approved, but not in-fact listed on the spec line in the following year's GCR, then I would feel that precedent has been set. Didn't the G-grind cam become legal through successful appeal anyway?

As a Datsun driver, I would prefer use a legal part. If it is not listed, it is not legal. I think it is a whole lot easier to verify it before hand.

A few years ago I drove a 2002. There was an error in the IT spec book as far as the valve size. The BMW shop manual showed two different intake valve sizes, for the two types of head. A competitor protested me as a "test case". He did this about an hour prior to the race, when I was working on the car. The incompetent steward informed me I had to go to the tower to discuss. He then said I could not race as I was under protest! The protest ended up being withdrawn, but it was a major hassle. Had I been aware of the error beforehand, it would have been far easier to correct it then.

Harry, and Darin, thanks for trying to clear this up.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[theenico]

Originally posted by Harry:
The "G" cam represented a change from 0.405 lift to 0.423 & the duration went fron 225 degrees to 283 degrees.

The "G" Cam would still have more lift and duration.

The data below if correct does show that the ITC VW's benefited by a 0.018" lift increase and 58 degrees duration improvement.

http://www.autotech.com/cam_vt.htm

The following data is listed on Autotech site. As to it's accuracy I am only assuming it is correct.

8 VALVE CAMSHAFTS

Solid Lifter Camshafts

From 1975 to the middle of 1980, the specs of the original cam were 0.405 inches lift with 225 degrees duration at .050" check clearance. On later cars, including the Rabbit GTi and Jetta GLi models, the cams were made more docile for pollution control and had a lift of only 0.387 inches, with slightly less duration than earlier.

European GTI Camshaft
What we consider to be the best all-around street cam for solid lifter engines. Originally used on the European Golf 1 GTi, this cam is called the European "G" cam (is also sometimes called the "N" cam) featuring a 0.423" lift and a duration of 283 degrees (225 degrees at 0.050" check clearance). Power gains are seen from 2000 up to 6500 rpm, netting an 8 to 10 horsepower gain. SportTuned valve springs are not required, but are highly recommended for the best top-end performance.
Lifetime warranty from Autotech.

European GTi Camshaft 10.109.423 $119.95

I did however request that if approved I wanted it listed on the spec line.

I do feel that I should refrain from any additional comments.
I have added my email address if anyone wishes to contact me directly.
Regards,
Harry

[email protected]



[This message has been edited by Harry (edited October 24, 2003).]

In your post you state that the g-cam has 58 degrees more duration. If you actually read the information that you posted you would know that both cams have the same duration (225 @ .050 lift). So the G's only additional benefit is .018" lift. Based on the CORRECT information from the other part of your post the 510 cam is probably very similar and should be allowed. In the future, though, please be sure of your accuracy when you post because it can be confusing.

------------------
Nico
KCRaceware (816) 257-7305
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by theenico:
Based on the CORRECT information from the other part of your post the 510 cam is probably very similar and should be allowed.

ONLY if it's officially labeled a recplacement or supersession by Nissan.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
ONLY if it's officially labeled a recplacement or supersession by Nissan.

Uh-Oh... now we're going to get into semantics again...

What if it's the ONLY part available from Nissan for that series motor? Again, if I walk into Nissan, and tell them to order me a stock cam for a 1968-1973 L16, and they tell me that there are several part numbers listed for that series, but four are NLA and only one part number is listed as active, is that not the "official" factory replacement for this car???

Also, can someone with some 510 experience please look at this microfiche and tell me which part numbers were the ones that were imported to the US?? I'm thinking that it's the ones where there is a "Y" in the "ICA-N" column, but I can't find a key to tell for sure...

http://www.carfiche.com/510/1/f06.gif

Thanks,

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Sorry.

Computer stuttered.


[This message has been edited by Geo (edited October 27, 2003).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Uh-Oh... now we're going to get into semantics again...

What if it's the ONLY part available from Nissan for that series motor?

Then it's not a replacement or supersession part. I think that's pretty clear. I don't see a semantics issue here.

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Again, if I walk into Nissan, and tell them to order me a stock cam for a 1968-1973 L16, and they tell me that there are several part numbers listed for that series, but four are NLA and only one part number is listed as active, is that not the "official" factory replacement for this car???

Easy. It's not legal.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
Then it's not a replacement or supersession part...

You'll have to explain that one for me George... because it IS THE replacement part... I've NEVER see the words "replacement part" shown in a manufacturers parts guide... If they discontinued a part number, but offer another in it's place, for that application, isn't the "replacement" pretty much given??? That's the semantical problem I see here, because when you look at a list of part numbers in a parts guide, it doesn't necessarily say "supersede" or "replacement"... sometimes it just lists a different part number next to the application and shows the original as NLA...

Is the parts guide required to be THAT specific?? If so, then just the differences in manufacturers parts guides would make this an inequitable rule...

It is my contention that if the manufacture has superseded, or otherwise replaced the original part number with something else, for the same application, then that's a legal part...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
If they discontinued a part number, but offer another in it's place, for that application, isn't the "replacement" pretty much given??? That's the semantical problem I see here, because when you look at a list of part numbers in a parts guide, it doesn't necessarily say "supersede" or "replacement"... sometimes it just lists a different part number next to the application and shows the original as NLA...

I agree. If the part is listed on a factory parts list it's legal. But if it's not, it's not legal. I don't care if it fits. Make sense?

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Is the parts guide required to be THAT specific??

Only specific enough to list the part in a parts list for the car.

Originally posted by Banzai240:
It is my contention that if the manufacture has superseded, or otherwise replaced the original part number with something else, for the same application, then that's a legal part...

I agree. If it's listed on a factory parts list.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
If the part is listed on a factory parts list it's legal. But if it's not, it's not legal. I don't care if it fits. Make sense?

OK, back on the same page... I understand what you were saying, and agree..



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Harry]

Originally posted by theenico:
In your post you state that the g-cam has 58 degrees more duration. If you actually read the information that you posted you would know that both cams have the same duration (225 @ .050 lift). So the G's only additional benefit is .018" lift. Based on the CORRECT information from the other part of your post the 510 cam is probably very similar and should be allowed. In the future, though, please be sure of your accuracy when you post because it can be confusing.

Nico,
Your 100% correct. I assure you it was an oversite & not intended.
My apology to all.
Harry

[Bill Miller]

But from your earlier arguement Darin, it would have to be listed on the spec line of the car to be legal. And, while I'll have to research this, I don't think that it's a requirement that legal parts be available from the factory.

But as far as your scenario w/ the new part #, I would still think you'd need something in writing from Datsun/Nissan to the effect that this is the new part # and the old part # is NLA, possibly w/ the specs of the new part.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608