PCA Responses... or LACK THEREOF!!!

[itafiero]

My crew responded to the original request for response on whether to have CAs at all.

If that doesn't count we'll send a new one.
If PCAs would improve the time for a car that is uncompetitive to be reclassified sooner than 7 years, which is what my Fiero took, then I might be for it. I guess a second letter is in order. ;->

BTW: From Fast Track I found the numbers, since March, to 15 for and 23+ against.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
And I'd still like for you to show me how the net result of published formula/adjustments is different from the net result of the PCA proposal.

OK, at the risk of being burned in effigy, what is the point of running around in circles, just to end up at the same place?

IT is not broken. To turn it up-side down only to end up back in the same place (at best) is simply a non-starter. Any formula will have to be tweaked and that puts us right back to where we started because the tweaking will still be subjective. There will just be more to argue about.

The one thing that is abundantly clear in the member letters is the IT community by and large values stability. Rehashing the classifications with forumulas that will still be tweaked is a bit like $%^$@ing in the wind.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[OTLimit]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Wanna bet on how many A3 Golfs you'll see in ITB grids next year? I bet it's at least 2x-3x the number that were in ITA grids.

Gee, Bill. Why do you think nobody built one of these before? Duh. I say that if there are even 5 A3 Golfs run next year, then it's a good thing.

BTW, I have seen no equation that I believe will do any better job than the system now in place. It would just change some of the words in the whining.



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[rbt510]

I can see there are a lot of different opinions, disagreements, and options on this subject, but after three pages and days of debate, where are we? I could add my two cents, but what will it accomplish??

You have all stated your opinions many times over, and now need to take it to the next step. I think that is to get more input from IT participants.

To get feedback from the IT participants, or any large group of people for that matter, you need to put in their laps. Why not send out a ballot to all IT participants that ran in an event in the last two years? I think this is how to get a good representation of the opinions of the members. Asking for feedback in Sports Car is not enough. Also, not everyone looks at this forum.

When there is an important issue, like elections, the regions sent out ballots. Those who have a strong interest in the club or an issue will respond. Those who have little interest in the issue will not respond.

The same thing will happen with this issue. You have to make it easy for the average racer, who can barely find the time to get his Nomex washed between races, to give you the feedback you need to address this topic. To leave it up to a minority would be a shame.


[This message has been edited by rbt510 (edited October 22, 2003).]

[planet6racing]

To be honest, I just don't care! Whether PCA are there or not, some facts aren't going to change:

1) I have a place to race, and it is damn fun!
2) The PCA formula won't make everyone equal.
and lastly:
3) All the same people that are whining now will continue to whine.

So, to this, I say "WHO CARES!" Let's just make the decision and go. Bump me to ITS. Bump me to ITC and add 400#'s. I don't care. I'm just happy to be out there and am doing this for the fun.

When I get serious, I'll move to a national class.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Eagle7]

1) Thank you for your service to our club. I don't think we express that often enuf and you guys end up in a crossfire.

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
...There are SUBJECTIVE factors that must be accounted for ...

I'm an engineer, and it's very ingrained in me that differences in performance are based on measurable physical characteristics. So what do you mean by subjective? Please provide an example.

Thanks,

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Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[Bill Miller]

Gee, Bill. Why do you think nobody built one of these before? Duh. I say that if there are even 5 A3 Golfs run next year, then it's a good thing.

Lesley, you can ask that question about a lot of cars. Some of them are just dogs in the class they're in. People build them because that's the car they want to race, and they really don't care where they are in the field.

Being a VW guy, I'm always happy to see more VW's at the track (maybe, one day, VWoA will see how many people want to race VW's and will step up and start doing some performance part development), if the A3 Golf is at the top of the ITB heap, then no, I don't think it will be a good thing that there are any of them out there.

Consider this, the A2 16v Golf in ITA weighs 60# less than the 8v version in ITB (2220# vs 2280#). And this is a car that makes 18-20 more hp in stock trim (123hp vs 103-105hp). Either the CB screwed the pooch when they set the weight on the A3 Golf when it was classified in ITA, or it should probably be given some lead on the move down to ITB.

I honestly don't think that people would be building these cars if they didn't think they were going to be a top-dog car in ITB.

And this somewhat relates to Andy's comments about me not trusting the 'system', or having any faith in it. It surprises me that people are willing to put so much trust in a group to subjectively class and spec cars, when they don't have a very good track record at doing it.

And Andy, you obviously know exactly how I think (I'll whine no matter what), so I guess I don't need to post anymore. BTW, you don't know as much as you think you do about me. I just want a system that's internally consistent, gives everyone an equal chance, and makes efforts to eliminate the opportunity for favortism (or at least the perception thereof). But, I guess there's about as much of a chance of that as there is of VWoA actually supporting the people that race their cars!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Originally posted by rbt510:
You have all stated your opinions many times over, and now need to take it to the next step. I think that is to get more input from IT participants.

I think everyone on the ITAC will agree with this.

Originally posted by rbt510:
To get feedback from the IT participants, or any large group of people for that matter, you need to put in their laps. Why not send out a ballot to all IT participants that ran in an event in the last two years? I think this is how to get a good representation of the opinions of the members. Asking for feedback in Sports Car is not enough.

1) Sending out the ballot you describe would be costly and extremely time consuming. Furthermore it would delay any action. The CB already gets grief for not acting quickly enough.

2) Sending out ballots is probably only very marginally better than Fastrack. I was the Vice-President of the SE-R Club of America and one of my duties was to conduct an election via ballots mailed with postage paid postcards sent to each member via USPS. The results were pretty pathetic.

3) I would argue (my position on the ITAC aside) that if someone cannot write a letter of response for an issue, they obviously don't care enough about that issue, or perhaps all club issues if they don't bother to read Fastrack.

Originally posted by rbt510:
Also, not everyone looks at this forum.

Besides, the Internet is not the proper medium for such issues.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[rbt510]

George,
So what can be done to more input? For the CB change the rules with little input from members seems to only serve a few who problably complained the most. (ie. squeaky wheel gets the grease) Too bad.
I'm not sure what other regions do, but the NE region sends election ballots many times a year, so to include another page for major rule changes would not incur much cost and could help get more input on important issues.
As far as the CB not acting quickly enough, this rules change is over a year away, so there is plenty of time to do more than post it once in FastTrack.
I am going to write and bug others to do the same.
The internet may not be the proper medium to resolve the issue, but it helps more people become aware of what's going on in the club.

Good luck with the ITAC.

Bob Tackman
NER

[Geo]

Originally posted by rbt510:
George,
So what can be done to more input?

Wish I knew. Seriously.

Originally posted by rbt510:
For the CB change the rules with little input from members seems to only serve a few who problably complained the most. (ie. squeaky wheel gets the grease) Too bad.

I don't know as this is a done deal. More than half the letters are against, but a number of them are from CRX or 325i drivers, but there is no clear mandate.

Originally posted by rbt510:
I'm not sure what other regions do, but the NE region sends election ballots many times a year, so to include another page for major rule changes would not incur much cost and could help get more input on important issues.
As far as the CB not acting quickly enough, this rules change is over a year away, so there is plenty of time to do more than post it once in FastTrack.

Two different animals I'm afraid. One event is a strictly regional event and the other affects all regions. Furthermore, every member gets Fastrack. It's the way the club communicates these issues to the general membership. If the club were to make individual personal mailings for every issue, it would not even have time to hold races (yes I'm exaggerating a little), not to mention the cost would be outrageous. If you do a national mailing only for certain issues, who decides what issues and how is this decided? My point is that it's not that simple. The club already mails the magazine and it's cost and time efficient to communicate issues this way.

Originally posted by rbt510:
I am going to write and bug others to do the same.

I, and the other ITAC members encourage you to do so. Thanks.

Originally posted by rbt510:
The internet may not be the proper medium to resolve the issue, but it helps more people become aware of what's going on in the club.

Indeed! Get the word out and encourage people to write!


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com